The Assembly met at 13:30 with the Deputy Presiding Officer (Ann Jones) in the Chair.

Order. Can I call the Assembly to order to start this Plenary session please? Thank you.

1. 1. Questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Local Government

[R] signifies the Member has declared an interest. [W] signifies that the question was tabled in Welsh.

The first item on our agenda this afternoon is questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Local Government, and I call question 1, Rhianon Passmore.

<p>Cardiff Capital Region Deal</p>

Rhianon Passmore AC: 1. Will the Minister make a statement on the current progress of the Cardiff Capital Region deal? OAQ(5)0060(FLG)

Mark Drakeford AC: The Cardiff capital deal demonstrates the benefits that can come from collaborative working across 10 local authorities. Progress remains in line with the timescales experienced by other, similar, large-scale city regions across the United Kingdom. Ratification of necessary governance and assurance arrangements is expected by February 2017.

Rhianon Passmore AC: For the people of Islwyn, the Cardiff capital region deal encompassing 10 local authorities, including our Caerphilly County Borough Council, is a true game changer. The deal’s top priority is the proposed south Wales metro. The Minister will be aware of the frustrations felt by my constituents daily as they seek to commute to the two major cities of Cardiff and Newport. On the highly popular Ebbw Vale to Cardiff railway line, commuters have been faced with Arriva Trains Wales using trains that are 40 years old. The carriages are overcrowded, with little possibility of additional diesel trains being acquired, as there are few anachronistic diesel trains on the market. The recent problems have been exacerbated by trains being taken off the tracks because repairs are needed as fallen leaves have damaged the train wheels. Will the Minister outline a timetable for when the Cardiff capital region deal, worth over £1 billion over 20 years, will begin to transform south Wales’s public transport infrastructure, including for my constituents, a train service directly into Newport?

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank the Member for that question. She’s absolutely right, of course, that the south-east Wales metro is a key feature of the city deal, and at its heart, it has the aim of creating a first-class public transport system across the whole region, to keep moving us forward for generations to come. Procurement of the operator and development partner for the next Wales and borders franchise and the metro is already well advanced. There are four bidders shortlisted to progress to the next stage. We expect to be able to award a contract in 2017, and see metro services operating from 2023.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Minister, obviously, we’ve had the autumn statement today. We know the city deal is in place. As I understand it from the autumn statement today, the Welsh Government will be getting an additional £400 million, and it’s going to be vital, combining the city deal with the additional resources that have been made available today, that the productivity of the Cardiff city deal area is increased, so that we increase the overall prosperity of that area. Will you commit to using the additional funds in a Cardiff sense to drive up the productivity of the Cardiff economy and the surrounding areas, so that there are better job opportunities, but above all, that the wealth of the area is increased?

Mark Drakeford AC: I recognise the points that the leader of the Conservative Party is making. The Chancellor was still on his feet when I came down to answer questions this afternoon, so I will wait to see the final details of the autumn statement before committing to any particular spending plans. But the point that he makes about investment in order to carry forward our economy is one that, quite certainly, is shared by this Government.

Neil McEvoy AC: There’s a huge contradiction between what you say about the regional approach and the reality, because local authorities just plan ahead with developments as if the city region project isn’t happening. So, why are you allowing Labour-run City of Cardiff Council to destroy the greenfields in your own constituency, rather than allocating them around the region as they would do with the regional approach?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Dirprwy Lywydd, the Member’s contribution is the usual mixture of malevolence and fantasy. He’s had his answer to this question many times and I have nothing to add to what he already knows.

<p>The Health, Well-being and Sport Portfolio</p>

Steffan Lewis AC: 2. What discussions has the Minister had about budget allocations to the health, well-being and sport portfolio? OAQ(5)0050(FLG)

Mark Drakeford AC: I meet regularly with a range of stakeholders and colleagues to discuss financial issues, including priorities and allocations within the health, well-being and sport portfolio.

Steffan Lewis AC: I thank the Cabinet Secretary for his answer. Wales has no specialist mother and baby unit and a constituent has recently shared with me the experience of her daughter who, on becoming a mother, suffered with postpartum psychosis but had to go to London to receive specialist treatment. Many mothers in similar situations will be separated from their babies whilst they’re treated in non-specialist hospitals. How much of the health budget allocation for the next financial year will be put towards caring for mothers with postpartum psychosis and other perinatal mental health issues?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Dirprwy Lywydd, I’ll draw the Member’s specific question to the attention of my colleague the Cabinet member for health, of course. I do know that at the very end of the last Assembly term additional funding specifically for perinatal mental health was made available, and I am confident that the extra services that will be provided as a result of that investment will be making a difference across Wales.

Suzy Davies AC: Last month, the City and County of Swansea council settled a claim brought by 11 of its occupational therapists that they were being paid less than their equivalents in the NHS. Unison said that occupational therapists right across Welsh local government, not only in Swansea, suffer lower pay and poorer access to professional development opportunities than their colleagues in the health service. I’m sure you agree with the point of equal pay for equal work, but have you discussed with local authorities whether they would be expected to meet any extra costs of similar claims from their own Welsh budget allocation, or bearing in mind that we’re talking about providers of health services, whether there’s an argument that they might actually go to the health budget in order to help them meet those costs?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Dirprwy Lywydd, I’m well aware of the general issue that the Member raises because occupational therapists are one of those groups that are employed both by local authorities for their purposes and by the health service. That does mean that there are different terms and conditions that apply to those different workplaces and, as the Member says, that sometimes means that different training opportunities are available depending on the sector you are employed in. Ultimately, these are matters for employers to resolve, but I am certain that they are well aware of the issue that the Member has raised.

Jeremy Miles AC: May I ask the Cabinet Secretary about the allocations to community pharmacy? I have in mind the statement by the health Secretary about his aspiration to increase the role of community pharmacy, to decrease the pressure on primary care and to integrate IT between hospitals, GPs and community pharmacies. Of course, it also offers the opportunity of relieving pressure on secondary care in terms of the delayed discharge if the integration of community pharmacies and hospital records can be completed. Could he comment on the allocations to community pharmacy in that context?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, the Member makes an important point in the financial context because, historically, investment in community pharmacy has been maintained on a par and in a parallel between the English and the Welsh NHS. Then on 28 October, last month, the UK Government announced that it was going ahead with proposals to cut the funding available to community pharmacies in England—a reduction of 4 per cent in this year and over 7 per cent in the next financial year. This inevitably breaks the link between the way that we do things in Wales and the way that community pharmacy is going to be funded in England. I’ve discussed this matter with my colleague the Cabinet member for health. This Government and, indeed, this Chamber has long emphasised the advantages to be obtained from a thriving community pharmacy sector in Wales. The intention of my colleague is to maintain funding in Wales without cuts, but then to discuss with the community pharmacy sector the additional contribution that they can make in recognition of the extra investment that will now be made in Wales compared to the destabilising cuts that will take place across our border.

Caroline Jones AC: Cabinet Secretary, the UK Government have today announced additional moneys for the Welsh block grant as a result of the autumn statement. Given the challenges outlined in the Welsh Government’s cancer delivery plan, namely the equipment shortages that are holding back earlier cancer diagnoses and consequently survival rates, will you please give a commitment to spend a large proportion of the additional moneys on improving diagnostic services in Wales?

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank the Member for the question. As I say, the Chancellor had not completed his statement when I came down. We’ve long learnt in this Chamber to look at the small print of what he says in these statements to see where money is being taken away, which the Chancellor tends not to emphasise, as well as where money is being provided.As I understood it when I left, there was not a single penny piece of additional funding for the health service being offered in the autumn statement, despite the enormous pressures that are there in the English NHS. The Member will know that, as a result of our budget agreement with Plaid Cymru, we are already committed to significant extra capital investment in diagnostic equipment for the Welsh NHS next year.

<p>Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople</p>

We now turn to spokespeople’s questions, and I call on party spokespeople to question the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Local Government. First up today is Gareth Bennett.

Gareth Bennett AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Could you put your hat as local government Minister on for a second? Hopefully, that’s not my first question. [Laughter.] Cardiff council has managed to raise £4.5 million in the past two years in bus lane fines. Do you think this may be an excessive amount, which could indicate that motorists in the city are being targeted by the council as cash cows? Can the Welsh Government intervene in any way to stop councils from taking overly punitive action against drivers?

Mark Drakeford AC: Dirprwy Lywydd, bus lanes are a very important part of the way in which we are able to encourage people to use public transport rather than car transport—that is the policy of this administration. Provided Cardiff council operate within the law, which I’m sure they do, then their actions are not to be criticised. The real solution to the problem the Member raises is in the hands of car drivers: if they keep to the rules of the road, they will not be at risk of being fined.

Gareth Bennett AC: Yes, thank you, Minister. As a non-driver, I do appreciate your regard for public transport, which I share. In an ideal world, your answer would be correct, but, unfortunately, given Cardiff’s traffic problems, sometimes drivers do inadvertently find themselves in bus lanes. To continue with the theme, Cardiff probably does have the worst traffic problems in Wales, and the council has also raised £3.5 million in parking fines since 2014 as well as £110,000 in yellow-box fines. This last is, perhaps, the most pernicious charge, as drivers caught up in the city’s endless traffic jams simply cannot gauge when they are going to end up in a yellow box. I really think that Cardiff and any other council engaging in this kind of money making should be forcibly dissuaded from doing so. Can you, as a Minister, issue any guidelines on this?

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank the Member for what he said about his support for public transport measures. I agree with him that if people find themselves in positions inadvertently, then the law should take a more generous view of any transgressions. I will investigate the final point that he makes about yellow-box infringements in particular to see whether there is wider evidence to bear out the points that he’s made this afternoon.

Gareth Bennett AC: Thank you for that, Minister. I’ll move on to something else, as you dealt with that one so capably. It’s to do with the Localism Act 2011, which they have in England and which we haven’t adopted in Wales yet. The Campaign for Real Ale have pushed for this as a means of protecting the local pub, which I think is an admirable campaign. Whether or not the Localism Act is the best way of achieving the protection of local pubs I’m not sure, but I know that CAMRA have been in talks with the Welsh Government, so I wondered whether you could give us any update on those talks.

Mark Drakeford AC: Dirprwy Lywydd, I’ve not been involved directly in those talks myself. I recognise the point that the Member makes about the contribution that a thriving pub can make to a community—a social contribution as well as anything else. I’ll make sure that his points are drawn to the attention of my colleague Carl Sargeant, who I think is responsible for that matter.

Thank you very much. I call on Plaid Cymru’s spokesperson, Adam Price.

Adam Price AC: I think I’m going to change the aperture a little bit from bus lanes in Cardiff to the world economic outlook. [Laughter.] I was wondering whether the Cabinet Secretary shares a growing global consensus, I think, amongst Governments right across the world that now is the time for infrastructure spending like never before. It may be the only policy lever that we have. One of the few positive by-products of the long recession that we’ve had since the economic crisis is ultra-low or, indeed, negative interest rates.That historic window may not be there forever, as we’ve begun to see in America already mortgage rates rising as a result of speculation over the infrastructure investment that may result as a result of the Trump presidency. Do we need to grasp this opportunity now with a greater sense of urgency, Cabinet Secretary?

Mark Drakeford AC: I entirely agree with the point the Member makes. As I said, I didn’t get to hear the whole of the Chancellor’s statement, but I did get to see the anaemic growth forecasts that the Office for Budget Responsibility produced for the next five years—I should think very alarming growth forecasts for anybody in charge of the UK economy. The OBR is not forecasting that the UK economy will return to trend growth at any point during the next five years. This doesn’t simply mean that we continue to face the impact of the lost economic activity that we have seen as a result of austerity, but that we’re not even going to return—not even going to return—to where the UK economy has managed to perform for nearly 60 years, from 1945 onwards. That should mean that the Chancellor should grasp this urgent need to invest in the UK economy to generate economic growth. Inflation forecasts surely give us cause for concern about interest rates, which will follow. Now is the time, when interest rates are at a historic low, as Adam Price has said, to take that opportunity and to invest for the future.

Adam Price AC: One of the policy levers that many Governments are beginning to focus on is the idea of an infrastructure bank, as I raised yesterday with the First Minister. We’ve had one announced this month in Canada by the Prime Minister there. There was the creation of the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank last year, and discussion from the former Labour Prime Minister in Australia about doing the same. I agree with him that £400 million over five years is certainly not going to enable us to do anything meaningful in terms of the underinvestment in infrastructure in Wales over many decades. So, surely we should also be exploring this policy lever that many Governments across the world have come to believe is the channel by which we can create the sort of public-private investment mechanism that we need in order to catch up in terms of our infrastructure investment.

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Dirprwy Lywydd, this Government will aim to make the very most of any additional capital that comes our way as a result of the autumn statement. But £400 million over a five-year period is not going to meet the needs of Wales. It does not even begin to restore the one-third reduction in our capital programme that we have experienced since the year 2010. That is why, as a Government, we have embarked on a series of innovative ways of providing investment in the Welsh economy. My colleague, Jane Hutt, did it by using the borrowing powers of local government and of housing associations. We have further innovative financial arrangements in train to produce the new Velindre and to complete the dualling of the Heads of the Valleys road. The idea that Adam Price has put forward this afternoon was discussed with the First Minister yesterday and I know that my colleague Ken Skates will have heard that discussion and will be interested to take it further forward.

Adam Price AC: Can I urge him to go a little bit further? We saw, actually, a national infrastructure bank announced by his colleague, the shadow chancellor, in a speech on 27 September. It was repeated three days later by the leader of the Labour Party—it’s good to see some policy alignment happening there. Surely, rather than just expressing constantly our disappointment with Westminster, the point about creating this institution and the Welsh Government is that we don’t just emote, we don’t just deal with emotional spasms of regret, we actually do something. This lever has been announced as a policy by his own party at the UK level—and a network of regional banks. Well, there’s a Government that his party runs in the UK: it’s the Welsh Government. Surely, rather than just issuing statements of regret and press releases about what a future hypothetical Labour Government could do in Westminster, surely we should actually take control of our own destiny and create an infrastructure bank for Wales.

Mark Drakeford AC: It’s because we have done exactly that that, in Wales, we’ve had the innovative finance arrangements that I’ve already explored. It’s why we have Finance Wales here providing a source of funding to businesses in Wales that otherwise certainly would not have been available to them. That’s why, indeed, we are interested to explore other ideas within our competence and our legislative ability to build even further on that record.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Cabinet Secretary, the recent Health Foundation report, ‘The path to sustainability: Funding projections for the NHS in Wales to 2019/20 and 2030/31’, highlights the need for an increase of around 60 per cent in funding to £10.4 billion by 2030-31 in order to meet the forthcoming predicted demand. They also identify the need for greater efficiency, and we know that smarter ways of working, particularly in the integration of health and social care, are a must. Based on your forthcoming local government reforms, which, of course, are to include a footprint of seven regional consortia, to include health and social care, what plans are you putting in place now to ensure that greater efficiencies could be made through a fully integrated health and social care model?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, I share the Member’s belief that closer integration between health and social care brings benefits both to patients and to users, and can help to drive financial efficiencies. It’s why, in next year’s budget, we maintain the £60 million care fund to drive greater integration between health and social care. It’s why we will have pooled budgets operating on the regional social services footprints, and it is why, in the discussions that I am having with local authorities in Wales, the notion of bringing social services together on a regional basis, facing health boards, helps us to make progress, and rapid progress, in that direction.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. The future generations commissioner has warned that public services could fall off a cliff without more being done to prevent people from becoming ill. This includes, obviously, quality housing and leisure services. Further, the Welsh Local Government Association has expressed concerns that NHS budgetary pressures could see non-healthcare services that help people stay healthy losing out. How will you ensure a streamlined approach through local government to promote public health, not just through the NHS, but through all public services provided at local government level, and how will you ensure that, throughout any reform process, this will be a key priority?

Mark Drakeford AC: Any person with the responsibility of making a budget for the Welsh Government has to face the competing priorities that are there for expenditure. In the budget that I have laid before this Assembly, we seek to do that, with £240 million additional investment in our health service direct, but also, as a result of our budget agreement, are able to provide a no-cash-cuts budget for local authorities as well, with £25 million identified specifically for social services within that. The general point that the Member makes is one that I endorse: the future for the health service depends upon each one of us being willing to take more responsibility for creating the conditions in which we take better care of our own health. So, much of what the health service deals with today are problems that need never have happened had people made different decisions in their own lives. It’s the responsibility of Government to create the conditions in which those decisions can be made, and our local government budgets are key to helping to do that.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Thank you. And, finally, turning to community councils, as part of your local government reform, how do you intend to proceed with a fundamental review of the democratic level of governance that sits at town and community level?

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Janet Finch-Saunders for that question. I know she’s got a particular interest in town and community councils. I said in my statement on 4 October that there were a series of immediate things I feel we can do to improve the operation of the system as we have it today, but I also wanted a more root-and-branch and independent look at town and community councils to find the ways in which we can harness the things that they do very well. In many parts of Wales, that sector does some very important things very well, but it doesn’t do it uniformly. There is a democratic deficit in the sector, with over half of town and community council seats uncontested at the last election. I’m grateful to her for the discussions we’ve had on this matter and I look forward to being able to continue with them to design that root-and-branch re-assessment.

Thank you. We now turn back to the questions on the order paper and question 3—Hefin David.

<p>Collaboration in Local Government</p>

Hefin David AC: 3. Will the Minister make a statement on future collaboration in local government? OAQ(5)0059(FLG)[R]

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank the Member for that question. I set out my proposals for future collaboration between local authorities on 4 October. The proposals for mandatory and systematic regional collaboration will build on the many collaborative arrangements local authorities already have in place across Wales.

Hefin David AC: Does the Cabinet Secretary believe that such mandatory collaboration has to lead to a return on investment, whether that be delivering more for less, more for the same, or the same for less, and, if that’s the case, how does he anticipate local authorities being able to justify collaboration, as a mandatory requirement, when the business case for collaboration may not necessarily bring a direct benefit to one or other of the individual local authorities engaging in the collaboration process?

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Hefin David for that supplementary question because he puts his finger on exactly why I have said throughout that these arrangements will have to be mandatory as well as systematic. There are too many examples in local authorities in Wales where an individual local authority has invested a great deal of time and effort in trying to bring about a collaborative regional arrangement only to find that, at the last minute, one of the participating authorities moves away from the table because they don’t see how their own narrow interest has been taken forward in what they all agree is a wider pattern of benefit. We cannot have arrangements in Wales where individual local authorities take such a narrow and time-limited view of their own interests and then sacrifice the wider interests of a region where progress could be made. So, the only way to overcome that, as I see it, is by agreeing these arrangements; I’m very keen to continue that conversation. But, once it is agreed, they will be mandatory and everybody will have to play their part in them.

David Melding AC: Cabinet Secretary, we’re of the same generation and probably the only two people in this Chamber that remember the 1994 White Paper to establish unitary authorities. I’m sure we’re the only people that would have read it. It said that at the heart of the concept of unitary authorities was that they’d have to collaborate, but a generation later—there have been some partnerships, of course—that sort of culture of collaboration is yet to be established. And that’s as important as what I would welcome—the more coercive measures that may have to be taken to ensure that, at last, we get them to co-operate effectively.

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, I’m afraid I was a county councillor myself back then, when those reforms were being advanced and discussed. So, I do remember them very well. Dirprwy Lywydd, can I say that, actually, when I go around local authorities in Wales I am often struck by the richness of collaboration that is already there? Every local authority can describe to you places where they are collaborating across their borders for very important purposes. The problem with it so far has been that there is no national pattern here. We’re not good at learning from positive experience in one part of Wales and making it happen elsewhere. That’s why, once we’ve agreed on the new co-operative arrangements there are to be, I am determined that they will have to be systematic—they will be the same across Wales, and they’ll be mandatory. Everybody will be involved in delivering them.

Joyce Watson AC: Cabinet Secretary, as well as collaboration within and between local government, there are also important partnerships between local authorities and other partners. One of those has been Powys council and the Powys teaching health board, who have entered into an agreement on health and social care in particular. Can you tell me whether there has been any assessment made of that collaboration and whether the outcomes have been positive?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Dirprwy Lywydd, Joyce Watson makes a very important point, which is always made to me by local authorities when I am meeting them: that the agenda for local authorities goes much wider than local authorities themselves. They all have really important partners, whether that is the local police service, the national park or, in the Powys case, as she says, the collaboration between Powys teaching health board and Powys council. I met the leader of Powys County Council recently and received an account from him of the work that they are doing. Interestingly, in relation to Suzy Davies’s earlier point, occupational therapy services are one of the very first things that they believe they can provide as a single service across both authorities. They tell me that good progress is being made. We’ve provided grant funding of more than £300,000 to assist the council and the LHB to get that collaboration off the ground, and I look forward to seeing further practical fruits of those endeavours.

<p>City Deals</p>

Steffan Lewis AC: 4. Will the Minister make a statement on city deals? OAQ(5)0051(FLG)

Mark Drakeford AC: Thank you for the question.Rwy’n parhau’n ymrwymedig i ddatblygu cytundebau yng Nghymru fel arf i annog twf economaidd a chydweithio pellach. Mae Llywodraeth Cymru wedi cael trafodaethau helaeth am gytundebau â Llywodraeth y DU i sicrhau’r manteision gorau posibl i Gymru.

Steffan Lewis AC: I thank the Cabinet Secretary for his answer. He’ll be aware, I'm sure, of Mark Lang's recent deep place study of Pontypool, where he highlights not simply the challenges facing that once-thriving community, but also the foundations that could be built upon for future success. Ventures like the Cardiff city region and the city deal provide opportunities for towns like Pontypool, but there are also threats as well. So, will he elaborate on how his Government will deliver a multi-hub, multi-growth whole approach to the Cardiff city deal and the city region plan, so that towns like Pontypool are at the centre of those plans, rather than at their periphery?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, the key point that I think Steffan Lewis is making is this, and it's reflected in the work that Mark Lang has been involved in: the Cardiff capital deal is not simply about finding better ways in which people can be attracted to the centre, to Cardiff itself, but a way of spreading prosperity across the whole of that region, and where connectivity means that we can more easily persuade businesses and economic activity to take place right across the region. It's encouraging to see the mechanisms that the deal is putting in place to make sure that projects right across the region are assessed for that impact, and I know that, amongst the 10 leaders of councils who come together to form the leadership of the deal, we see a determination to make sure that its fruits are genuinely provided across the whole of those 10 authorities.

Mohammad Asghar (Oscar) AC: One component of the Cardiff city deal is the creation of the Cardiff capital region skills and employment board. One of the jobs in its hands is to ensure that the skills and employment provision is responsive to the needs of local businesses and communities. Can the Cabinet Secretary update the Assembly on Welsh Government financial support for skills and employment provision in the Cardiff city region and how this will deliver benefits to south-east Wales, please?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, I thank Mohammad Asghar for the question. He’s right to point to the creation of that board, and I was encouraged to see that the board contained not simply the local authorities themselves, but education representatives, employer representatives and third sector representatives as well. The £1.3 billion deal that we are providing for the Cardiff capital region is a combination of local authorities’ own funding, funding that will come from the UK Government and funding that will come from the European Union, but the bulk of the funding—the largest contributor—comes from the Welsh Government itself, and it is exactly aligned with those purposes to make sure that, as well as physical connectivity, we have a skills base amongst the local population that means that this is an attractive place for employers to come and create economic opportunity.

Julie Morgan AC: How does the Cabinet Secretary see the future governance of the Cardiff city region developing? It’s very exciting that the 10 leaders have come together in the way that they have. How does he see this developing in the future?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Dirprwy Lywydd, it is a very important development that those 10 leaders are committed to make happen, but it is very important indeed that they are able to deliver according to the timescale that they themselves have made a commitment to deliver. Because the model, which is the Cabinet model where all 10 leaders will form the cabinet of the Cardiff capital city deal, is yet to be ratified by the constituent authorities. Every leader is committed to making sure that that arrangement has been ratified by their council before the end of February of next year. My message to them, which I’ve conveyed regularly in meetings to them, is that it is absolutely vital that they deliver on that timetable so that we remain on track in governance terms to draw down the money that is available for the deal.

<p>Section 137 of the Local Government Act 1972</p>

Russell George AC: 5. Will the Minister make a statement on the application of section 137 of the Local Government Act 1972 relating to the powers of local authorities to incur expenditure? OAQ(5)0056(FLG)

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Russell George for the question. This section 137 power allows a community or town council to incur a limited amount of expenditure for purposes for which it has no other specific power or duty, and which will bring direct benefit to their area or any part of it.

Russell George AC: Cabinet Secretary, Llanfair Caereinion Town Council have been in correspondence with me on this issue for some time. The town council are keen to take on the running of the town library from county council control. If this doesn’t happen then it’s fearful the town library is likely to close.Now, legal advice provided to the town council actively prohibits them from funding the library under section 137 of the Local Government Act 1972. However, the local authority has received opposing legal advice. I’m grateful to you for writing to me on this matter today in quite some detail—I appreciate that, Cabinet Secretary. Would you agree to provide clarity on the application of section 137 in this regard?

Mark Drakeford AC: I’m grateful to Russell George for drawing this to my attention and providing copies of the correspondence from Llanfair Caereinion and Powys County Council, which illustrates the point that he is making. My officials have already provided advice to other town and community councils in Powys, and in general, our advice is that the financial restriction set out in section 137(4) continues to apply in circumstances where a town or community council seeks to exercise the well-being power contained in the Local Government Act 2000 to support the required expenditure. However, you do have to apply that general principle in every particular set of circumstances, and that’s the debate that is currently taking place between some town and community councils and Powys County Council itself.What I will say to the Member is this: I intend to bring forward proposals as part of any consultation on local government reform to clarify the law in relation to the power and capabilities of town and community councils in taking on services and assets. So, even if there is some ambiguity or difference of view at present, I want to support town and community councils in the important efforts they are making to sustain services in local communities. We’ll take advantage of any consultation we bring forward to try and do just that.

Mike Hedges AC: Historically, in the pre-poll-tax days, local authorities were able to use the equivalent of the product of the penny rate to carry out activity for the benefit of their local area. Does that Cabinet Secretary agree with me that what is needed, and what local authorities have asked for for as long as I can remember, is a power of general competence for local authorities, so that if it’s for the benefit of their area, it’s what the council votes for, it’s what constituents want, then they can spend money on it.

Mark Drakeford AC: Mike Hedges is absolutely right and he reminds us that, in the draft Bill on local government that the previous Minister brought forward, there was exactly that proposal: to provide a general power of competence to principle authorities and, indeed, a power of competence to town and community councils that were able to reach a certain threshold of competence in their own affairs. While we’ve not been able, up until now, to reach an agreement on some important parts of reform of local government, that was an aspect that was generally welcomed, and I definitely intend to take it forward if I have an opportunity to do so.

<p>The Education Portfolio</p>

John Griffiths AC: 6. Will the Minister make a statement on the overall budget allocation to the education portfolio? OAQ(5)0065(FLG)

Mark Drakeford AC: As set out in the draft budget published last month, the budget allocation for the education main expenditure group next year is £1.99 billion.

John Griffiths AC: Cabinet Secretary, a big part of the job of Government is to decide on priorities, and for me there is no higher priority than education. I believe a well-educated population benefits all aspects of life and life chances in communities. In addition to that, the recent report by Gerry Holtham and Brian Morgan looked at economic development policy across the world and found the strongest correlation between spending on schools and economic success. So, I very much welcome the recent new allocation, but I wonder if, going forward, together with the First Minister and your cabinet colleagues, you will continue to consider very carefully whether additional resources can be made available to our schools in Wales.

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank John Griffiths for that. He makes a point that others have made this afternoon: that investment in human capital is one of the most powerful ways in which we can continue to sustain our economy and our economic prosperity into the future. Figures published last week by the Treasury showed that expenditure on education in Wales continues to be 4 per cent higher than in England. The draft budget that I published has, by itself, more than £90 million extra to the baseline to be able to make the pupil deprivation grant a permanent part of our funding in Wales; £20 million above that to raise school standards; and £0.5 billion going primarily to the twenty-first century schools programme, of which £28 million is there for Newport. I hope the Member will be assured from that that, even when tough priorities have to be set, the requirement to go on investing in education is one that is much in our minds.

<p>Sharing Procurement Practice</p>

Lee Waters AC: 7. What discussions has the Minister had with the Board of the National Procurement Services on the readiness of local authorities to share procurement practice? OAQ(5)0052(FLG)

Mark Drakeford AC: Those discussions do take place and they have focused on the results of the first round of procurement fitness checks, which my colleague Jane Hutt sponsored in the last Assembly. The results are available to assist those local authorities who may need support with specific aspects of their procurement practice.

Lee Waters AC: Thank you. At the last meeting of the board of the National Procurement Service, it was revealed that only three local authorities have been willing to share data on how they lease vehicles. What can the Cabinet Secretary do to require data sharing, and once that data is with the NPS, what can he do to make sure the focus isn’t just on cost savings, but on capturing the value to local economies?

Mark Drakeford AC: It’s an interesting question that the Member raises and, actually, car leasing turns out to be a more complex subject than I first realised when I was originally briefed some time ago by the National Procurement Service on this topic. There is a Wales-wide National Procurement Service framework for car hire that all local authorities participate in, but that’s only for cars that are being hired for up to a week. If you want to hire a vehicle for more than a week, you have two choices in Wales: you can become part of the Crown Commercial Service system, and three local authorities in Wales have chosen to be a part of that, but it doesn’t suit all local authorities in Wales, particularly those from rural areas. They prefer to enter into long-term hire arrangements, most often with those companies that they use from the car-hire framework. The car-hire framework provides eight or nine different companies that you can choose to hire from. Local authorities in Wales do not choose the cheapest supplier. Why is that? It’s because they make a conscious decision to hire from local suppliers because of the effect that that has on jobs and other economic prosperity in their localities. So, the point that the Member makes is an important one and I think the data suggest that it is actively in the minds of local authorities when they make these decisions.

<p>The Apprenticeship Levy</p>

David Rees AC: 8. What assessment has the Minister made of the impact that the apprenticeship levy will have on the block grant? OAQ(5)0058(FLG)

Mark Drakeford AC: The apprenticeship levy is a UK Government employment tax that directly conflicts with areas of devolved competence. It does not provide significant new money for Wales. Any positive consequentials as a result of it are largely offset by negative consequentials and the additional costs to public sector providers.

David Rees AC: Thank you for that answer, Cabinet Secretary. It is worrying to see that, in fact, what we are getting from the UK central Government is being taken away in another part, but also we are funding our public bodies and they have to put that money back to the Treasury under the apprenticeship levy. Can you give guarantees that the money will be used for apprenticeships? There are many bodies I’ve met with that happen to pay this levy and therefore feel that they’re being penalised for actually trying to take on apprentices but are not getting anything back. In England I know there’s a voucher system, but here we seem to have nothing.

Mark Drakeford AC: Let me provide the figures for Members to see. It takes me back to almost the very first question I was asked by Andrew R.T. Davies when I said that the small print in all of this is important. So, in the spending review settlement, the Treasury announced that there was to be £114 million added to the Welsh block grant as a result of the apprenticeship levy. Had you read further down the page into the small print, you would have discovered that, at the same time, £90 million was being taken out of the block grant because of a reduction in English apprenticeship programmes. If you had read further down the page again, you would have discovered that Welsh public sector bodies were being required to pay in £30 million to the apprenticeship levy scheme. So, we were being given £114 million and £120 million was being taken away. That’s why, on days like today, it’s important to wait to see the whole story before making any spending commitments.As a result of combined pressure from all devolved administrations, the Treasury announced within the last week or so a change to the basis of calculation of the apprenticeship levy, which will provide and extra £13.7 million for Wales next year. I will be in discussions with Cabinet colleagues as to how that money can be invested. But any idea that there are millions and millions of pounds coming to Wales through the apprenticeship levy is simply a fiction.

<p>EU Structural Funds (North Wales)</p>

Hannah Blythyn AC: 9. Will the Minister make a statement on how EU structural funds are assisting businesses and employment in north Wales? OAQ(5)0064(FLG)

Mark Drakeford AC: Since 2007, Dirprwy Lywydd, EU projects in north Wales have helped 9,300 people into work, created 2,340 apprenticeships and 7,660 jobs.

Hannah Blythyn AC: Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. EU funds have helped enable innovation in north Wales, assisting the likes of ADC Biotechnology based in OpTIC in St Asaph, as well as ESF funding supporting the provision of intensive support and a range of bespoke interventions to help get people closer to the labour market through the North Wales Economic Ambition board’s OPUS programme and, of course, Jobs Growth Wales. This is just a snapshot of what EU funds have helped make happen in north Wales. Cabinet Secretary, can our organisations and communities in north Wales count on the Welsh Government’s continued support to draw down EU funding to support business and jobs in the region?

Mark Drakeford AC: I’m grateful to the Member for the opportunity to restate the Welsh Government’s position, which is, for as long as we remain in membership of the European Union, we will try and draw down the maximum possible investment for the benefit of communities across Wales. By the end of this month, as a result of accelerating the programme in the conditions we now face, we will have agreements in place covering 60 per cent of the £1.9 billion-worth of EU structural fund allocations. We will continue to make approvals beyond that and those approvals will apply to north Wales as much as to any other part of our nation.

Thank you very much, Cabinet Secretary.

2. 2. Questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Environment and Rural Affairs

[R] signifies the Member has declared an interest. [W] signifies that the question was tabled in Welsh.

We move on to item 2, which is questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Environment and Rural Affairs. Question 1—Russell George.

<p>The Environmental Protection Act 1990</p>

Russell George AC: 1. Will the Minister make a statement on the application of the Environmental Protection Act 1990 in Wales? OAQ(5)0055(ERA)

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. The Environmental Protection Act 1990 provides controls and supports enforcement on a number of issues, including the disposal of controlled waste, litter and remedial action for contaminated land. Under the devolution settlement, we have successfully amended the Act to enable its application to more specifically address Wales’s needs.

Russell George AC: In a letter to me on 7 November, Cabinet Secretary, you said that you saw no need to amend the Environmental Protection Act 1990, which states that local authorities have a statutory obligation to provide residents with at least one facility where they may deposit their household waste. Now, in light of the closure of the recycling centre in Machynlleth, coupled with the fact that the local authority is now considering the closure of further recycling centres in either Newtown or Welshpool, can I urge you to consider amending section 51 of the Act in order to allow every resident in Wales to have access to a recycling centre within a reasonable distance from their home, as opposed to an 80-mile potential trip, as might now be the case in some areas of rural Wales?

Lesley Griffiths AC: I know we have exchanged correspondence on this issue, and I think I probably said in the letter to you that local authorities do have a high degree of autonomy and flexibility on this issue, and that allows them, really, to respond to local needs and reflect local priorities. I would still encourage people to participate in the consultation that is taking place in Powys, and I still don’t see any need to amend section 51 of the Act at the current time. However, I’m happy to review the position if circumstances in Powys, or anywhere else for that matter, necessitate that.

<p>Tackling Japanese Knotweed</p>

Mike Hedges AC: 2. Will the Minister make a statement on efforts to tackle Japanese knotweed? OAQ(5)0056(ERA)

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. I’m taking forward a number of initiatives designed to tackle this invasive species. These include the continuation of biocontrol trials to establish a non-native psyllid and the development of a fungus-based herbicide designed specifically to control this plant.

Mike Hedges AC: Can I thank the Minister for that response? Knotweed is a major problem in Swansea East, making houses difficult to sell and spreading onto neighbouring properties. I’m very pleased with the update the Minister gave me on experiments with a natural predator and on chemical attempts to attack it. The natural predator has been used now for several years, when will the decision be made on whether it can be used more generally?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Well, you are aware, obviously, of the results of the chemical trials that were held by Swansea University. They were published last year, and I think what they showed was there wasn’t a one-hit wonder, really, in relation to tackling this very difficult condition. There has been a planned series of treatments, which is absolutely the key to having effective control. I don’t know if Members are aware, but since the trial ended, the most effective herbicide tested, piclorum, has now been withdrawn from the market. We are continuing to fund biocontrol projects, and that really builds on the successes of the earlier trials. The phase that we’re looking at now will focus upon psyllid establishment with release to a wider range of sites, using enhanced release methods with new psyllid stock from Japan. I think the aim is for, then, the insects to suppress Japanese knotweed’s vigour so it won’t be the aggressive invader that it is now.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: I thank the Member for asking the question, actually. Japanese knotweed is estimated to cost £165 million to the UK economy each year, and the Residential Landlord Association has warned that it can have such a detrimental effect on the value of property it can render it worthless. The previous Minister did say that a natural predator had been found that will help in the control of Japanese knotweed and was being trialled in Swansea. I ask the Minister—the Cabinet Secretary—can you provide an update on the roll-out: how successful it’s been and whether you do have any intention to use a special control order in the future to tackle this issue?

Lesley Griffiths AC: This is something that I am monitoring and, as I said, we are continuing to fund the trials. We’ve just funded phase 2 this year of the biocontrol trials, so I think we need to evaluate that before making any decisions on the way forward.

Thank you.

<p>Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople</p>

We now turn to party spokespeople’s questions, and the first party spokesperson is Simon Thomas.

Simon Thomas AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Cabinet Secretary, 2016 is on track to be the warmest year since records began, and the effects of climate change are already being felt, as we’ve seen, indeed, over the last few days here in Wales. Now, your draft budget proposes cuts of 38 per cent in the capital expenditure for climate change mitigation and flood defence projects. Following the announcements of the autumn statement today of some, at least, additional capital funds for the Welsh Government, albeit only about the sum that’s used to repair a big house in London, shouldn’t you now be looking to reinstate some of these funds into your capital projects budget for flood defence?

Lesley Griffiths AC: I’m sure the Assembly Member will be pleased to learn that I think a letter is already winging its way to my colleague the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Local Government. You will have heard Mark Drakeford say—obviously, he was on his feet for the tail end of the Chancellor’s announcement—certainly, once we’ve had a look at the small print, and the Minister’s had the chance to look at all our bids, we can have a look at what extra funding we can each have.

Simon Thomas AC: I thank the Cabinet Secretary, and I’m pleased that she’s taking the advantage to ask for those to be reinstated. We understand £400 million will be available for the next five years. That would suggest around £80 million in this financial year, though I accept that we have to look at the detail. But we have to show leadership on this, and you’ve just returned from the Conference of the Parties 22 in Marrakech, and I was very pleased that you’d been there. Now we understand that even Donald Trump accepts some connectivity, as he puts it, between climate change and our activities, which means that UKIP have been outflanked by Donald Trump on climate change. Can I welcome the announcement that you made at Marrakech that Wales will be one of the six European regions to sign up for the UN 2050 pathways platform to increase co-operation between all levels of Government on the delivery of climate change measures on the ground? Can you provide any more details regarding how you intend to accelerate our delivery of climate change measures, including that all-important aim of cutting emissions by 40 per cent by 2020?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. Yes, I was very pleased to attend COP22, and I don’t think it was too short to say that it was a life-changing experience. I met some inspirational people, and I hope Members have had the opportunity to read the written statement I issued last night. You’re quite right that our target is to reduce carbon emissions by 40 per cent by 2020. That’s a cross-Government commitment. I had bilaterals before I went to Marrakech with my Cabinet Secretary colleagues so I could find out what they were doing within their portfolios. I now plan to have another series of bilaterals, because, clearly, we’ve had a lot to learn from a lot of states and regions. I took the opportunity to have many bilaterals with environment Ministers and other leading politicians from the states and regions. We, of course, have got a lot to learn, but I think it was absolutely vital that we were there. We were part of the UK delegation, but it was very important that I took the message that in Wales, although we’re a small country, we are absolutely happy to play our part in reducing our carbon emissions.

Simon Thomas AC: I thank the Cabinet Secretary. It was obvious from your tweets that you were enjoying yourself there, and I mean that in a professional way, and also, of course, from the written statement, which, again, was full of positive messages from COP22. I only regret that the Assembly didn’t get its act together in time to send Assembly Members to accompany you, because I think that will be appropriate for the future.One of the things that was agreed there—and, again, it was a positive message—was that 47 of the world’s countries most affected by climate change have pledged to use only renewable fuels by 2050. You also told the conference, I think in a blog post, that all electricity bought by the Welsh procurement service for the public sector will be 100 per cent renewable by next year, which I think is laudable, although there is a question always about what is 100 per cent renewable under EU directives, but that’s another matter. What I really want to know is how you will achieve and build and maintain this, and don’t you think, as we move now to a more sustainable future, now is really the time for a Wales-owned non-profit-sharing public energy company to lead the way to be part of the step change in renewables that we need?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Yes, I was very pleased to announce that all electricity bought for public services in Wales by the National Procurement Service from next year will be 100 per cent renewable, and there was a great deal of interest from other states and nations as to how we’re going to achieve that. I will be making a statement next month on energy policies for this term of Government, and it’s certainly something I can consider.

Conservatives’ spokesperson, David Melding.

David Melding AC: Cabinet Secretary, are you disappointed that Stop Climate Chaos Cymru has said that Ministers are yet to deliver on climate change policy, and that WWF Cymru warns of an ambition gap?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Well, I don’t think there’s an ambition gap, and I mentioned in my previous answer to Simon Thomas that I had bilaterals with my Cabinet Secretary colleagues before I went to COP22. That was very specifically done. I don’t think there’s a lack of ambition in any portfolio across Government. I do accept that, for us to achieve our target of reducing carbon emissions by 2020, we need to look at doing some things differently, and I mentioned again that I will be having another round of meetings with my colleagues in the coming weeks.

David Melding AC: Cabinet Secretary, carbon budgets are at the heart of the environment Act, and they’re now not expected until the end of 2018. And I think it’s reasonable for us to ask, ‘Why the delay?’ Does it really take three years to produce the first carbon budgets? We’ll be halfway through this Assembly, and those budgets are supposed to help you prioritise and us to scrutinise.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Yes, we have started the process of getting our carbon budgets in place. Again, I think we need to do more to align those carbon budgets with our financial budgets, and something I learned at COP22 was how this was being done in other countries. If I can expedite it in any way, I will do so.

David Melding AC: Minister, to emphasise the drift in policy implementation, I must ask why the strategic impact assessments for your department are so vague. They’re at the heart of the future generations Act, and they do not seem to have played much of a part in your budget priorities or choices. Is it not the truth that this Government is keen on legislation, but very poor on implementation, as Stop Climate Chaos Cymru and WWF have so correctly observed?

Lesley Griffiths AC: You are right that we have the future generations Act, we have the environment Act, we’ve got this world-breaking legislation, and it is now all about implementation. I don’t think my SI assessments are vague. I think they’re a very important part, obviously, of our budget. I think that they can be improved on going forward, and I think, when I mentioned in my previous answer about carbon budgets and finance budgets being more aligned, the reason why I said that is so that it does improve year on year.

Neil Hamilton AC: I thank Simon Thomas for acting as the warm-up act to the series of questions I’m about to put on related topics. The Cabinet Secretary will be aware that the Welsh Government has required Powys County Council to increase its generating targets for electricity from renewables—from wind power, in fact—from 50 MW, to 600 MW. That could see another 200 to 300 windmills desecrating the landscape of mid Wales, over 40 per cent of all the landmass of Powys outside the Beacons national park, and up to 14 turbines could automatically, therefore, be approved, because of the presumption of planning approval under the development plan at Abergwesyn, the Begwns, Pant-y-Llyn Hill, Merthyr Cynog, Llandegley, Abbey-cwm-hir, and Hirnant. Local residents are very concerned about the impact that such developments would have upon their daily lives. Given that these projects can make no tangible difference to climate change, and even if you believe in the connection between increased carbon dioxide and global warming, is it really worth wrecking people’s lives and landscape?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Well, I was very pleased to answer Simon Thomas’s questions about the very important conference that I attended last week. I’m not going to debate whether I believe in something with a Member of UKIP, frankly. That science has been there for many years.

Neil Hamilton AC: This is a democratic forum, isn’t it? What are we here for?

Lesley Griffiths AC: In relation to windfarms, I do understand that some people have concerns about it, but I would think that those people would also be concerned if, when they put the light on, it didn’t come on. It’s about making sure that we absolutely invest in renewable energy going forward.

Neil Hamilton AC: Well, the Cabinet Secretary clearly doesn’t understand that part of the problem with reliance on renewables is that the lights may well not come on when you press the switch. At the moment, the National Grid is generating 3.33 per cent of power from renewables, compared with 17.32 per cent from coal and 49.68 per cent by combined-cycle gas turbines. Combined-cycle gas turbine generation has to be maintained in order to cope with the intermittent nature of wind. The Campaign for the Protection of Rural Wales has denounced as futile the reliance upon intermittent energy sources because of this duplication of cost, because the average capacity factor of wind turbines is only 20 per cent. So, for 80 per cent of the time they’re not generating enough wind and, therefore, they have to be supplemented by other sources of generation, doubling the capital cost and also in the process, of course, emitting carbon dioxide emissions because of the energy intensive nature of what needs to be created through their capital costs.

Lesley Griffiths AC: I absolutely recognise that existing energy sources such as coal play an important role in the Welsh economy and in providing our energy, but what we need to look at is not just the current energy mix but the energy mix going forward. In light of the Paris agreement, which you may not want to sign up to, but I’m absolutely happy to sign up to and I think most Members in this Chamber would be happy to sign up to, we are committed to a transition away from those sources of energy unless appropriate decarbonisation technologies come on stream. So, it’s absolutely vital that we invest in renewable energy and alternative energy sources going forward.

Neil Hamilton AC: Well, under the Paris agreements, of course, India is going to treble its carbon dioxide emissions in the next 15 years and China is going to double them whilst we are making the sacrifices, which have been the subject of my questions this afternoon. But the Cabinet Secretary has responsibility also for rural affairs and the countryside, and tourism is vitally important in mid Wales. Littering the countryside with windmills is going to do nothing to attract tourists to mid Wales. I’m asking the Cabinet Secretary—just to have a sense of proportion on this—there are plenty of places in which you can build windfarms or generate electricity in other renewable ways by solar panels, et cetera, in areas of outstanding natural beauty that might not be national parks; would it not be better not to have these windfarms and to concentrate on building them elsewhere?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Well, maybe when the Member learns a bit more about Wales you’ll find that we’re very rich in renewable resources. It’s about balance, so the short answer to your question is ‘no’.

<p>Flood-risk Management in North Wales</p>

Darren Millar AC: 3. Will the Minister make a statement on flood risk management in north Wales? OAQ(5)0054(ERA)

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. The Welsh Government’s flood and coastal risk management programmes are actively addressing risk across north Wales in line with our national strategy. This includes major work at St Asaph, appraisals for 20 potential coastal schemes and over 70 small-scale projects to build resilience and undertake essential maintenance.

Darren Millar AC: Thank you for that response, Cabinet Secretary. Can I thank you also for the work that the Welsh Government has done in helping to protect homes in my own constituency from flooding? But there is a great concern, which I’ve raised in this Chamber on many occasions, about the Old Colwyn east promenade and the vulnerability of that part of the coast to flooding, particularly given its protection of vital infrastructure in north Wales for the transport networks, in particular the A55 and the north Wales railway line. I know that a number of parties need to come together to resolve that particular problem, but given the Welsh Government’s interest in protecting the A55 in particular, I’d be very grateful if the Welsh Government could take the lead on this issue and bring these parties together so we can crack on and protect that part of the coast, particularly given the improvements that have been made elsewhere in the Colwyn Bay area.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Well, it is an issue and we are bringing parties together and my officials do continue to work with Conwy County Borough Council to try and find an appropriate solution. But I know that no decision has yet been made because we do need that work to be done. So, I’d be grateful if you too could encourage your local authority.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: The reality is, of course, Cabinet Secretary, that the Government has cut the capital budget for flood defences. Of course, that is going to place even more pressure on the need to develop alternative strategies and work with landowners, for example, to retain water in the uplands and so on and so forth. But, of course, the Government has been talking about that for many years and NRW has been talking about it for many years. But the move to that modus operandi hasn’t actually happened to the extent that would make a real difference. So, can I ask you what additional incentives you as a Government are considering in terms of landowners, to see that decisive shift in that way of working? And, more specifically, what consideration are you giving to providing enhanced incentives to landowners and farmers to use their land as overflow areas, because that would make a difference in areas such as the Conwy valley?

Lesley Griffiths AC: That isn’t a discussion I’ve had with the farming representatives, but I think it is something that certainly I can look to do. I do want to remind Members that we are still investing £55 million across Wales this financial year, and whilst we have seen some flooding, particularly down in south Wales, this week, I think that, because of the defences we have put in place and the financial investment that we have made, we have seen it on less of a scale. But, of course, that’s no comfort if your home has been flooded.We’ve also got the £150 million coastal risk management programme, on which, again, we’re working very closely with local authorities to implement. But, I’d certainly be very happy—. I’m meeting the farming unions in the next couple of weeks, and I’d certainly be very happy to have that discussion with them.

<p>The Effect of Brexit on Environmental Policy</p>

Llyr Gruffydd AC: 4. Will the Minister make a statement on the effect of Brexit on environmental policy in Wales? OAQ(5)0064(ERA)[W]

Lesley Griffiths AC: Diolch. Our world-leading Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 and Environment (Wales) Act 2016 put in place a strong foundation ahead of Brexit and deliver on the Convention on Biological Diversity, the Paris agreement and the UN global goals. They provide a clear direction based on key international obligations, which will not change as a result of Brexit.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Could I ask what assessment of the implications of Brexit for Wales as a GM-free nation has been made? Can I ask you to commit to protect that status in any negotiations that you have?

Lesley Griffiths AC: That hasn’t been looked at initially as part of the implications, but, certainly, we will continue to take the precautionary approach we have taken over the past years.

Mark Isherwood AC: Clearly, the environment knows no borders or boundaries. What is the Welsh Government’s view on the form of enforcement mechanism that will be required at a UK level for environment policy after we leave the EU? Evidence to the External Affairs and Additional Legislation Committee from Aberystwyth University refers to discussions about the creation of a UK environment court. A representative from the University of York said,‘Whether or not it needs to be an environmental court, I’m not quite sure… but if I were a lawyer, I’d be sitting here saying, “No, we need a new court”.’

Lesley Griffiths AC: Again, I haven’t looked into the issue of a court in great detail. I’m actually meeting Andrea Leadsom tomorrow, so it’s certainly something I can discuss. We’ve been very clear that the powers that have been devolved to this place since 1999 will be here. They may go into the repeal Act initially, but any powers will then come to us for us to have our own environmental policies going forward.

Jenny Rathbone AC: The air quality directive is one of the most important EU directives. Governments are required to achieve compliance by the soonest possible date that reduces exposure as quickly as possible. The Air Quality Standards (Wales) Regulations 2010 require Welsh Ministers to draw up and implement air quality plans to address pollution in the relevant zones, one of which is Cardiff. You will, I’m sure, be aware that the Government has been found wanting in the High Court, acting on behalf of the devolved administrations, and that Mr Justice Garnham has now ordered the UK Government and, presumably, the Welsh Government to produce new plans by the end of April 2017. I just wondered whether you could, in your discussions with Andrea Leadsom, tell us how we are going to accelerate our plans to reduce air pollution in Cardiff, which, as you know, is killing over 40,000 people across the UK before their time.

Lesley Griffiths AC: I am, of course, aware of the UK Government High Court ruling. Members will be aware that I’m out to consultation at the moment regarding air quality and noise management. That consultation is open until 6 December. I plan to use the evidence and the responses we get as part of that consultation—use the evidence going forward to when we have to then come forward with our response by the spring of next year.

<p>Promoting Welsh Seafood</p>

Simon Thomas AC: 5. Will the Minister make a statement on promoting Welsh seafood? OAQ(5)066(ERA)[W]

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. We are working to develop and promote our seafood sector in Wales for both domestic and export markets. I recently launched the new seafood strategy during Welsh Seafood Week, aimed at growing the economic value of the sector. We will again promote the sector at the Seafood Expo Global event in 2017.

Simon Thomas AC: Thank you for that answer, Minister. The seafood strategy you’ve just alluded to—who actually owns that strategy? As I understand it, it’s Seafish Wales’s strategy and not the Government’s strategy. Can you, therefore, confirm that the Government agrees with the strategy and wants to see the aims of that strategy being realised and, specifically, given that the strategy gives a target of a 30 per cent growth in seafood produce from Wales, how would you attain that target, bearing in mind the aims that you have under the Environment (Wales) Act 2016 and, of course, the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015?

Lesley Griffiths AC: The strategy was brought together by working—certainly my officials working—with the industry. They developed that. I launched it, as you say. And that vision for the strategy, I think, is shared by Government and by the industry and that’s to have a thriving, vibrant, safe and sustainable seafood industry for Wales. I think it’s absolutely right that we promote the quality and the sustainability of Welsh seafood products—that enhances the reputation—and, to achieve that, my officials will, again, be working, not just with the industry, but other partners also.

Paul Davies AC: Cabinet Secretary, I also recognise the Welsh Government’s seafood strategy, which aims to see a 30 per cent increase in fisheries and aquaculture production by 2025. In this strategy, you mention expanding sustainable aquaculture production and, in relation to that, can you tell us what the Welsh Government is specifically doing to encourage the sustainable development of new fisheries in Welsh waters?

Lesley Griffiths AC: It’s very important, as I said, that, if we’re going to achieve that vision, we have—. A key action is to promote the quality and sustainability of our seafood product. It’s very important that anything that we do, going forward, is based on evidence and on science and, for instance, that’s what I did when I agreed to an extension of the scallop bed in Cardiganshire.

<p>Landscape Crime</p>

Rhianon Passmore AC: 6. What is the Welsh Government doing to combat landscape crime? OAQ(5)0062(ERA)

Lesley Griffiths AC: Landscape crime, including fly-tipping and illegal off-roading, is an issue the Welsh Government takes very seriously and is committed to tackling. The Environmental Protection Act 1990 and the Clean Neighbourhoods and Environment Act 2005 provide a range of powers to allow local authorities to deal with those who undertake environmental crime.

Rhianon Passmore AC: Diolch, Minister. Recently, I chaired a multi-agency meeting at the iconic Valleys tourist hotspot, Cwmcarn Forest Drive, addressing the real concerns about the rise in landscape crime, and specifically at Twmbarlwm tump. Representatives from Caerphilly, Blaenau Gwent and Torfaen councils attended, along with the police and fire service as well as the Gwent police and crime commissioner.In September 2015, a south-east Wales uplands landscape crime toolkit was commissioned to develop an innovative toolkit for tackling landscape crime within an area encompassed by a number of local authorities. This important project was funded through the groundbreaking Welsh Government nature fund, which was a £6 million fund announced in 2013 by the Minister for Natural Resources and Food, with the aim of promoting joined-up collaborative and area-based actions. Will the Minister outline what support the Welsh Government can give to support the local authorities and partner agencies to combat the scourge of landscape crime?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. Our rural development programme’s £10 million sustainable management scheme has been designed to achieve multiple benefits and that includes combating anti-social and illegal activities on our valuable upland landscape. I would again urge all parties interested in this to submit expressions of interest.You mentioned the landscape crime toolkit and that was delivered as part of our Forgotten Landscapes project, part of the nature fund. That outlines mechanisms to manage, mitigate and treat a range of anti-social behaviour in an upland landscape and maps out an approach that could be then transferred to other areas of Wales.I’m aware of a number of activities that have since been undertaken to directly address criminal activity and that includes off-road prevention operations, combating fly-tipping actions, and firebreaks to minimise the impact of arson and natural wild fires.

Mohammad Asghar (Oscar) AC: Clearing of fly-tipping cost councils in South Wales East nearly £385,000 in 2014-15. Fly-tipping damages the landscape and natural habitats and has an adverse effect on tourism, as my colleague’s just mentioned, and is also a health hazard for the people who walk with their children and their pets alike. In South Wales East, in different areas, under the bridges, behind the bus shelters, behind the bushes, when you go across small roads, and even some dual carriageways, there’s a serious, serious problem of fly-tipping, Cabinet Secretary. What further action can the Welsh Government take to tackle the problem of fly-tipping in South Wales East and get rid of this problem, like Singapore in the far east, which actually gives a severe punishment to the people who do this sort of crime? Thank you.

Lesley Griffiths AC: We have invested greatly in fighting this, and it is a crime and illegal. We’ve funded Fly-tipping Action Wales initiatives since 2007 and work very closely with them. One thing that we are thinking of doing, going forward, is—some local authorities have said to me, ‘Sometimes, it can just be one black bin bag that’s been left there.’ So, we’re looking at consulting on whether we should implement fixed-penalty notices for small-scale fly-tipping, because, certainly, local authorities have said to me they think that would help with the matter.

Vikki Howells AC: Illegal off-road biking is a type of landscape crime that harms our natural landscape and can also pose a danger to the public. Natural Resources Wales recently revealed that 22 people had been arrested for illegal off-road biking in south Wales in November alone, and many residents I’ve spoken to in my constituency have highlighted the problems caused by this activity. What actions are the Welsh Government taking to tackle this type of landscape crime?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. Illegal off-roading is a criminal offence, so, therefore, it is a matter for the police, but we’re encouraging stakeholders and members of the public to work with the police and other partners, including Natural Resources Wales and local authorities, to help tackle this issue. I think we have seen an increase in this sort of activity, so it’s very important that, as I say, all partners come together to tackle this.

<p>The Ecological Status of Welsh Inland and Coastal Waters</p>

Joyce Watson AC: 7. Will the Welsh Government make a statement on the ecological status of Welsh inland and coastal waters? OAQ(5)0063(ERA)

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. Natural Resources Wales is working with land managers and other stakeholders to improve working practices and deliver status improvements in Wales’s water bodies. This year, 97 of our 103 designated bathing waters have been classified as ‘excellent’ or ‘good’, making Welsh beaches amongst some of the best in Europe.

Joyce Watson AC: Yes, I’ve seen that figure and I thank you for that answer. It is, indeed, really good news. But I want to focus on what we’re doing in terms of the water framework directive, and the stats for inland and coastal waters aren’t quite so good. In fact, only 37 per cent are in ‘good’ or ‘excellent’ ecological condition. I understand that things like historical industry, physical modifications and other factors play their part, but it does suggest that, following on from what you’ve just said, where we put effort in, we get results out. So, my question is: what measures are you thinking of bringing forward, Cabinet Secretary, so that we can boost the recovery of all our water, including specifically freshwater?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. You are quite right that 37 per cent of all water bodies in Wales achieve ‘good’ or better status, and I aim to increase that, going forward. Natural Resources Wales are targeting their resources to work with land managers and other stakeholders to improve working practices, and that, I think, will bring forward status improvements. You’re right about historical industry and, certainly, since I’ve come into post and had a look—you can see that pollution from abandoned metal mines, for instance, is one of the reasons. But it’s not an excuse and we need to do more, so I’ve given extra funding to Natural Resources Wales to specifically tackle that significant issue, and that’s through the metal mine remediation project. Agricultural pollution is also a significant issue in Wales and, again, in Pembrokeshire, we have a particular problem, so, again, officials are working very closely with NRW and also with the farming community so that we can develop practical and deliverable solutions on this issue.

Paul Davies AC: Cabinet Secretary, the most recent west Wales river basin management plan acknowledges a number of significant water-management issues, including physical modifications—such as changing water channels and building structures—which Joyce Watson mentioned earlier, which currently affect 25 per cent of the water environment in the area. Therefore, what guidance or support can the Welsh Government offer to local authorities, and, indeed, stakeholders in west Wales, to ensure that any new modifications that are made do not have a negative impact on the water environment, and are actually sustainable and as environmentally sensitive as possible?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Well, as I said in my answer to Joyce Watson, it’s very important that Natural Resources Wales work with land managers and other stakeholders, and that includes local authorities. I’ve given extra funding to tackle certain issues, but it’s really important that stakeholders and all partners work together around this issue.

Simon Thomas AC: We haven’t mentioned nitrate vulnerable zones yet, which is one of the tools that the Government is proposing to use to tackle water quality and run-off. Can I draw the Minister’s attention to the approach being taken in parts of France, and particularly in Brittany, which I saw over the summer, where they use an agroforestry approach called ‘bocage’, or ‘argoed’, as we would call it in Welsh? I think the Bretons have a similar word, but I won’t try the Breton pronunciation. This is the planting of hedgerows and trees, on which an EU report says the following. It demonstrates‘that nutrient uptake by trees reduces soil nitrate concentration, and that denitrification can reduce the loss of nitrate. At a watershed scale, the nitrate flux brought by water surface decreased when the hedge tree density increased’.So, there are alternatives, perhaps, to some of the models that the Government is considering, and I would urge her to look at how we could use some natural features and natural tree and hedgerow planting to deal with nitrate run-off, perhaps as an alternative in the nitrate vulnerable zones.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Yes, I’d certainly be very happy to look at what’s been carried out in Brittany. You’ll be aware that we are currently consulting on the implementation of the nitrates directive in Wales. I think it closes in the next couple of weeks. So, again, I would encourage all interested parties to read the consultation and respond accordingly, but, of course, I’m very happy to look at best practice elsewhere.

<p>Priorities for Energy Policy in the South-east</p>

Steffan Lewis AC: 8. Will the Minister make a statement on the Welsh Government’s priorities for energy policy in the south-east? OAQ(5)0053(ERA)

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. My priority is to accelerate the transition to a low-carbon energy mix with policies that support our strategic objectives as a Government, as set out in ‘Taking Wales Forward’. I’ll be making a statement in December that will outline my energy priorities for the whole of Wales.

Steffan Lewis AC: I thank the Cabinet Secretary for her answer. The south-east, like many other parts of our country, provides great potential for local energy generation that’s renewable, reliable and could benefit local communities. There are exciting plans to harness the energy potential of the Ebbw river on the site of the former Navigation colliery, and low-entropy heat recovery from the old pit too. Will she work with the local community in Crumlin and other interested parties to realise the tremendous potential for energy generation on the site of the former Navigation colliery?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Yes, certainly. I’d be very happy to work with local residents. It’s been really good to see, over the summer, some very good community energy projects; I opened a hydro scheme recently not far from Merthyr Tydfil. So, it’s great to see these communities coming together, bringing forward these ideas for these schemes, and we’d be very happy to support with funding if appropriate.

Mohammad Asghar (Oscar) AC: Community renewable energy projects allow local communities greater control of energy generation. Could the Cabinet Secretary advise the Assembly how the Welsh Government local energy programme is encouraging and supporting such projects in south-east Wales and elsewhere?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Well, across Wales we are, as I say, encouraging communities to come together with ideas for local renewable energy schemes. We have a pot of funding. I think, at the moment, we’ve got eight. I think eight have been completed and we’ve got six going through, or it might be the other way around, but I’ve seen a couple myself over the summer. I mentioned the hydro scheme. I also visited a community windfarm. So, it is really good to see these projects coming together, and I’m very happy to meet with any Member who wants me to meet with residents, if necessary, to discuss these schemes in detail.

Jenny Rathbone AC: The Wales Bill is currently in the Committee Stage in the House of Lords, and, in its current form, it would devolve energy planning powers to Wales for all generation projects up to 350 MW, and that is very welcome because, unlike Neil Hamilton, I’m sure we’re both aware that there are many, many opportunities for the economy of south-east Wales and elsewhere. There have been some amendments tabled in the House of Lords that would enable Wales to take forward all the recommendations in the fourth Assembly’s ‘A Smarter Energy Future for Wales’, which was produced by the environment committee. This would permit the Assembly to legislate on all aspects of the generation, transmission, distribution and supply of electricity, other than nuclear energy. And, as you’ll be aware, Cabinet Secretary, this is often the barrier to small-scale projects, that the transmitters simply charge such an outrageous sum that it kills the project stone dead. So, will the Welsh Government support these new energy amendments in the Wales Bill?

Lesley Griffiths AC: You will be aware that officials have been having very detailed discussions with the relevant UK departments on the energy consenting provisions in the Bill. A number of amendments went through the Commons; we're very hopeful that further amendments are going to be made to the Bill as it progresses through the House of Lords to address our remaining concerns, and we’ll be watching it very closely.

<p>Polystyrene Food Packaging</p>

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: 9. Will the Minister make a statement on the use of polystyrene food packaging in Wales? OAQ(5)0067(ERA)

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. We are currently evaluating our waste strategy to ensure resources are managed to produce sustainable benefits for Wales. We continue to work in partnership with the packaging industry and organisations such as WRAP to promote the optimisation of packaging and to reduce it where possible, regardless of the material.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Thank you. You might have seen the BBC One programme last night, ‘Keeping a Lid On It’. It was highlighting problems of four-weekly bin collections in Conwy. But one of the issues that came from that is that about 70 per cent of beach litter in Wales is polystyrene/plastic, and everyone is now with these polystyrene cups for coffee and everything. They’re finding their way now significantly into our landfill. Over 100 cities around the world have banned, or are in the process of banning, polystyrene food packaging, and your predecessor did say last year that he would look at whether there is something in Wales that we could do specifically to address some of these issues. Could you outline what you will do to address this? Will you consider a levy on such items, and are you in a position to report on the findings of the joint research project commissioned by your department between Swansea University and the Marine Conservation Society?

Lesley Griffiths AC: I didn’t see the programme, but I have read about it today, and you'll be aware that Wales is really leading the way in relation to recycling. If we were a single member state in Europe, we would be fourth in Europe, but, certainly, we’re way ahead of the game in the UK.In relation to your specific questions around polystyrene, I'm not quite sure why you think that, because we have done some data analysis on this, and polystyrene is not thought to be a major contributor to littering in Wales, except on a very local basis, where it's by the premises that are providing fast food, for instance. It tends to be the independent fast food outlets that use this polystyrene packaging—it’s not well used across Wales. However, any litter is not to be welcomed, and I'm very happy to look at other things.In relation to a levy on polystyrene, again, would people take—it's not like a carrier bag—would people take a container with them to get their food? So, I think we need to look at other interventions before we introduce a levy. But I'm very interested in packaging across—you know, single-use coffee cups. I'm very happy to look at what we can do in relation to this, to look if we need legislation, and, again, in my meeting tomorrow with Andrea Leadsom, it's on the agenda.

Julie Morgan AC: I'm sure the Cabinet Secretary is aware that, earlier this year, Oxford became the first city in the United Kingdom to ban non-recyclable packaging from takeaway vans in the city, and under new rules there, all packaging and utensils used by street vendors must be recyclable or biodegradable. So, I think we've already said here how Wales has taken the lead in so many environmental issues. Could she look at what we can do about this, because I think this does seem a good example where steps could be taken forward, and would she consider banning non-biodegradable fast food packing in Wales?

Lesley Griffiths AC: I've now found the statistics that I have about polystyrene in particular. It was in 2015-16 that Keep Wales Tidy undertook this survey, and they found 5.2 per cent litter was polystyrene, but most of it, 3.2 per cent, consisted of other polystyrene—so, not just the packaging. But 2 per cent of it was the fast food items. I'm very happy to look packaging as a whole, right across the scope of all packaging, because I think, you know, if we could reduce packaging, that would help so much, and whilst we're ahead in recycling, there is still, we know, 50 per cent of black bin waste that could be recycled. So, we need to look at the whole spectrum of packaging going forward.

Thank you very much, Cabinet Secretary.

3. 3. Questions to the Assembly Commission

[R] signifies the Member has declared an interest. [W] signifies that the question was tabled in Welsh.

We now move on to item 3, which is questions to the Assembly Commission. This week, the question will be answered by Joyce Watson.

<p>Accidents</p>

Mike Hedges AC: 1. How many recorded accidents have occurred on the Assembly estate since May 2011? OAQ(5)003(AC)

Joyce Watson AC: Thank you for that question. There have been a total of 63 accidents that have been recorded on the estate since 2011. Forty-three of them were by Commission staff, two by Assembly Members, two by Assembly Member support staff, two by Welsh Government staff, four by contractors, and 10 by public visitors.

Mike Hedges AC: Can I thank Joyce Watson for that response? Considering it is over five years, it is not a very large number of accidents, but every accident is one too many. What is being done by the Commission to reduce the number of accidents on the estate?

Joyce Watson AC: Identifying, of course, the causes of accidents is where you have to start, and the health and safety adviser does make regular floor walks of the Assembly estate with a full-time trade union officer. Any recorded hazards are assessed and remedied quickly, with each department having its own health and safety champion. But when accidents do occur—and they will—they are investigated by the Commission’s health and safety adviser, who will develop appropriate recommendations and actions. Those are followed up to make sure that they’ve been implemented properly and effectively, but prevention is always better than cure, so all Commission staff are provided with health and safety awareness training as part of their induction, as are Members and their support staff.

Thank you very much.

4. 4. 90-second Statements

We now move on to item 4, which is the 90-second statements. The first of the 90-second statements is Joyce Watson.

Joyce Watson AC: Thank you. In 1991, the first White Ribbon campaign was launched by a group of men in Canada after the brutal mass shooting of 14 female students at the University of Montreal, asking men to sign a pledge never to commit, condone or remain silent about violence against women. In 1996, that was adopted in South Africa, and in 1998 Womankind launched the first White Ribbon Day in the UK. In 1991, the UN officially recognised 25 November as the International Day for the Elimination of Violence Against Women, and the white ribbon is now a symbol of hope for a world where women and girls can live free from the fear of violence. Wearing that white ribbon is about challenging the acceptability of that violence.Since then, the White Ribbon campaign has been adopted by all parts of the UK, and Wales has played a significant part in spreading that message, also joining the worldwide movement that seeks to improve the lot of women who do experience violence against themselves, but also in hope of reducing the numbers who do.

Thank you very much. The second 90-statement—Mark Isherwood.

Mark Isherwood AC: Diolch. As a Girlguiding Clwyd ambassador, I’m charged to act as a representative to tell others about what Girlguiding does and the opportunities it gives to girls and young women. This month saw the opening in Buckley Library of the ‘Pushing Boundaries’ exhibition that had previously been at the National Library of Wales, charting the history of Girlguiding in Wales to date. Also this month, the national child development study reported that people who are in the Scouts or Guides in childhood have better mental health in their life, stating it could be the lessons in resilience and resolve that such organisations offer that has such a lasting positive impact.The recently launched Girlguiding Cymru strategic plan, ‘Being Our Best—Bod Ein Gorau’, focuses on four key areas: excellence, access, capacity and voice, and plans the path Girlguiding Cymru will take to 2021. Their vision is to provide an exciting, fun and relevant programme for girls and young women in an equal world where all girls can make a positive difference, be happy, safe and fulfil their potential. Their new strategic plan will help them achieve their vision and ensure that girls in Wales have the best Guiding experience possible. So, let us together support Girlguiding Cymru’s volunteer leaders in their commitment to extending entitlement and upholding the rights of all the girls and young women in their care.

Thank you very much. The last of the 90-second statements this week is Julie Morgan.

Julie Morgan AC: Thank you. Idloes Owen. A plaque was unveiled in memory of Idloes Owen at a house in Llandaff North recently. This was part of the seventieth anniversary celebrations of the national opera this year. Idloes Owen lived on Station Road, Llandaff North, in the 1940s. He was the founder, leader and producer of the Welsh National Opera. He was also Sir Geraint Evans’s first tutor. The son of a coalminer, he worked in a coalmine after leaving school at the age of 12. Following a period of illness, and with the support of the community, he managed to gather enough funds to allow him to study music at Cardiff University. Taking part were Ysgol Glan Ceubal, Hawthorn Primary School and Ysgol Gyfun Gymraeg Glantaf. The family who now live at the house are very happy to display the plaque in his memory.

Thank you very much.

5. 5. Motion to Amend Standing Order 26 in relation to Member Bills

We move on to item 5 on the agenda, which is the motion to amend Standing Order 26 in relation to Member Bills. I call on a member of the Business Committee to move the motion—Paul Davies.

Motion NDM6169 Elin JonesTo propose that the National Assembly, in accordance with Standing Order 33.2:1. Considers the Report of the Business Committee ‘Amending Standing Orders: Standing Order 26—Member Bills’ laid in the Table Office on 15 November 2016; and2. Approves the proposal to revise Standing Order 26, as set out in Annex B of the Report of the Business Committee.

Motion moved.

Paul Davies AC: Formally.

Thank you. The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? No. Therefore, the motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

As the motion has been agreed, I’m pleased to announce that the Presiding Officer will hold the first ballot on 25 January 2017. The Table Office will contact Members with details of how to enter that ballot.

6. 6. Debate by Individual Members under Standing Order 11.21(iv): Precision Agriculture

Item 6 is the debate by individual Members under Standing Order 11.21 on precision agriculture. I call on Lee Waters to move the motion—Lee.

Motion NDM6143 Lee Waters, Huw Irranca-Davies, Simon ThomasTo propose that the National Assembly for Wales:1. Recognises the enormous potential benefits of the application of ‘big data’ in agriculture.2. Notes the growth in research and development in precision agriculture as a way of increasing yields, maximising the use of scarce resources and minimising the use of harmful chemicals.3. Calls on the Welsh Government to develop a strategy to put Wales at the forefront of the development of precision agriculture.

Motion moved.

Lee Waters AC: Diolch, Ddirprwy Lywydd. I must confess that the looks on many of my colleagues’ faces when it was announced that we were having a debate on the application of big data in agriculture could be best described as puzzled, but I can assure the Assembly that this is not the result of some esoteric whimsy on behalf of the sponsors. The practical implications of big data in farming are huge. Precision agriculture is about innovation, productivity, software and skills. This is not some obscure tech project; this goes to the heart of some of the most pressing challenges we face, like austerity, food security and climate change. We are generating, capturing, storing and processing data at speeds never before witnessed. Eric Schmidt, the former CEO of Google, once claimed that every two days we now generate the same quantity of information that was created between the dawn of time and the year 2003—every two days. The total amount of data being captured and stored by industry globally is doubling every 14 to 15 months. We’re approaching the point where we’ll be able to code nearly everything we do. The challenge for our and future generations is to exploit the power of big data to improve our lives—to harness the algorithm.

Joyce Watson took the Chair.

Lee Waters AC: Precision agriculture is at the vanguard of this data revolution. It’s a rapidly developing area where information is being applied to food production and land cultivation to dramatically improve productivity and reduce harm to the environment. In arable farming, for example, this approach enables farmers to gather a wealth of real-time information: water and nitrogen levels, air quality, disease—data that isn’t just specific to each farm or to each acre, but to each square inch of our farmland. Using this information, algorithms can tell the farmer exactly what each square inch of land needs and when and, with pinpoint precision, produce the maximum possible yield.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Will the Member give way?

Lee Waters AC: Indeed.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: I thank very much Lee Waters for introducing this debate and securing this debate and also for giving way here. But, would he agree as well, in his opening remarks, that this is also an issue of social justice? Precision agriculture and all it entails can confuse people, but it’s actually been identified as part of the solution of how to feed that estimated growing population—to 9.1 billion by 2050. It’s not the be-all and end-all, but it’s one of the tools we have to feed that growing population.

Lee Waters AC: I completely agree that it is has multiple benefits, both in terms of food production but also in reducing environmental harm, which also helps some of the poorest in the world by mitigating the impacts of climate change.Now, not only do these precisely applied algorithms mean that less stuff is going in, at a reduced cost to both our farmers and, with fewer harmful chemicals, the environment, but more stuff is coming out, precisely as Huw Irranca-Davies just intimated. Research has shown that precision agriculture could increase crop yields by as much as 67 per cent. At a time of spiralling global food and water insecurity, figures like these matter. In New Zealand, farmers have developed a way of taking micro-measurements of vast swathes of farmland to identify how much grass is in the paddock so that dairy cows can be distributed most effectively for feeding. It alerts farmers to the amount of feed they have and identifies low-production areas that need intervention—for example, more fertiliser. By feeding their animals more efficiently, kiwi farmers have helped increase exports to China by 470 per cent in one year—a clear economic payback for knowing the precise location and concentration of grass in a field: the application of precision agriculture.There are pockets of innovation across Wales, in our further and higher education institutions. I recently met with the principal of Coleg Sir Gâr in Llanelli, Barry Liles, who told me about how one of their campuses is already reaping the benefits. At their farm in Gelli Aur, near Llandeilo, in the Carmarthen East constituency, they’ve enjoyed significant efficiencies in milk production, maximising the use of grass and minimising the input of expensive feed. They use satellite imagery to measure field sizes and allocate grazing allowances to their herds. Grass-growth data are measured weekly by plate meters, recorded on a smartphone app and synchronised to a web recording programme. They’re also trialling satellite navigation in experiments with precision fertiliser application. In Aberystwyth University, the Institute of Biological, Environmental and Rural Sciences have been involved in cutting-edge developments in forage grasses. Now, it may sound a little remote, until the practical ramifications of this research become clear. These grasses have demonstrated exciting promise in flood mitigation, something that has been on our minds a lot this week.We haven’t begun to scratch the surface of the potential of precision agriculture for Wales. I spoke last week about the public workshop I held in Llanelli recently, designed to help develop a jobs blueprint for my constituency, and the overwhelming consensus was that we need greater ambition for the area if we are to withstand coming economic storms. And that’s not just true of my constituency, it’s true across Wales. And precision agriculture presents us with a prime opportunity to demonstrate this ambition.One of the industries that will likely bear the brunt of Brexit is our food production and manufacturing sector. The removal of the common agricultural policy and the likely imposition of food export tariffs will hit our farmers hard, and we need to prepare for this and to find new, imaginative, innovative means to drive growth in this critical sector—a sector that quite literally puts food on our tables. The market disruption prompted by what is commonly called ‘the fourth industrial revolution’ offers us also an opportunity to do just that: to reimagine the Welsh food economy, to establish Wales as the UK’s western furnace of innovation and industry, all whilst strengthening our resilience to some of the biggest global challenges we face.We should, we need, to be all over big data like a rash. The cross-party motion before the Assembly today calls on the Welsh Government to develop a strategy that will put Wales at the forefront of the development of precision agriculture. I would urge Ministers and Members to invest energy and enthusiasm to do just that. Thank you.

Joyce Watson AC: I’d like to call Andrew R.T. Davies.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Thank you, acting Presiding Officer. It’s a pleasure to take part in this debate, albeit a little sooner than I thought I was going to be taking part in the debate. I do declare an interest, being a farmer, and just in case I do stray into areas that people might think conflict with my interests, I do put that on the record.On our farm, in the Vale of Glamorgan, we make great use of satellite imagery and controls of pesticides and fertilisers; nearly all the tractors we use are satellite guided, so when you’re putting the fertiliser out, a certain part of the field, for example, will have a greater dose of fertiliser than the other part of the field, because the imagery is showing that that piece of ground is more fertile than the other. Twenty or 25 years ago, you’d just go into a 10, 15, 20-acre field and you would put a uniform rate across that field, not really knowing whether you were having the impact that you required. And, obviously, there’s the leeching effect that that nitrate and other components of that fertiliser has on the environment. So, there’s an economic benefit back to the business but there is also an environmental benefit back to the business.We debate much in this Chamber, and very often some of them are the same old problems that we are debating within this Chamber, but by debating this debate today, which as the mover of the motion highlighted—at first you think, ‘What a quirky debate. What are they talking about here?’—actually we can have a huge impact in this area because the land mass of Wales is predominantly agricultural. We have such a varied agricultural industry. We have the arable areas around the coastal regions, we have the livestock sector, and I see the Member for Brecon and Radnorshire is here, which has one of the highest densities of livestock farms anywhere within the United Kingdom. We also have a growing renewables sector making use of our land area, and also the management of flood prevention and environmental gains that can be had. So, really, when you look at the mix of agriculture and the use of agricultural land in Wales, considering the size of Wales, we have a huge spread of opportunity to actually push the boundaries of this new technology, and patent and develop that technology here in Wales.It was quite appropriate—the intervention that was made by the Member for Ogmore—to point out that we are living in a world with huge population growth, and yet the challenges to the natural resources of this planet have never been as great. You have vast areas of the globe that are turning arid because of water problems and are the source of conflict in many areas. You have the western democracy, shall we say, or the western economies, that historically have provided huge quantities of food through their support of the agricultural industry, but the productivity of the agricultural industry, especially in crop production in particular, really hasn’t moved for the last 20, 25 years. If you look at wheat production, for example, because the genetics of the wheat season have been brought forward, they have not really kept up with the potential and the demand that we need to create to sustain a viable food production base for the ever-growing population of the world.The motion before us today does put the gauntlet down, in a friendly way, to the Welsh Government, and to our higher education and further education institutions, and the industry itself, to rise to the challenge and the opportunity that actually is there to develop these new growth areas. It’s not just in the production of crops. In livestock production, in particular, big data can make a huge improvement in the profitability and efficiency of the livestock sector, from the genetics that have proven to deliver better livestock animals back to the farm gate, to also the assessment of the meat that comes from those animals when they are processed in the processing plant. In New Zealand, for example, much of the grading work that is undertaken on the carcases of the animals is undertaken electronically now, rather than by the human eye, thus reducing the disparity, shall we say, that very often does happen when the human eye is relied on and the demand that the abattoir might have to what the producer needs, thus providing a consistent level of return back to the primary producer to have the confidence to invest in that livestock sector.So, this is a really exciting area and we have pockets of real innovation going on in our HE and FE sectors across Wales—Gelli Aur has been talked about; Aberystwyth is another beacon of excellence that we can look at—but we do need to have, as the motion calls for, a plan from the Welsh Government as to how it’s going to harness this research and development moneys, along with the facilities that exist within the research sector in Wales—. I have a limit on my time, but I’ll happily take the intervention.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: My apologies, I don’t intend to intervene too much. But would he agree as well that one of the exciting opportunities of this, with the exponential growth in big data, is actually what we could do on the environmental aspect, because the endless rounds of inspection, inspection, inspection and monitoring, monitoring in the traditional form could be, to some extent, done away with by the accuracy of the big data monitoring of what is actually happening on the ground?

Andrew RT Davies AC: There is huge scope for that, and as someone, obviously, who has been regularly inspected, having been in farming for 25 years, I see the pros and cons of that because the landscape is a moving feast, and the rigidity very often of a snapshot from a Google image or something that inspectors are relying on does cause some problems very often. But there is scope to improve that aspect of it as well.I do welcome the motion before us. I believe we could have filled a lot more time looking at this particular aspect, because I do think that it’s a genuine area that Government can make a big difference in, the industry can make a big difference in, and our research and business sectors can also deliver for what promises to be an exciting and dynamic century in the world of food production and, indeed, the availability of new technology.

Jenny Rathbone AC: It’s very interesting to hear the explanation of Andrew R.T. Davies about the work he’s doing in this area. As Huw Irranca-Davies and Andrew have pointed out, it is a way of maximising yield without the use of chemicals, and intelligently harnessing the power of nature. According to the Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations, food production must increase by 60 per cent to be able to feed the world’s growing population. Big data is a powerful, evidence-based tool for long-term sustainable development by improving the economic opportunities for farmers, as well as the health of consumers.We saw what happened in Zimbabwe, where critical levels of crop failure in 2013 put over 2 million people at risk of chronic malnutrition. Big data can help prevent those sorts of things from happening, both by foreseeing the weather conditions that produce that crop failure, but also mitigating and producing alternative ways of dealing with the problem. I’ve spoken many times about the horticulture trade deficit we have in the UK, and particularly in Wales, and this is one of the ways in which we could very efficiently become self-sufficient in horticulture, as well as using it as an export market.I just want to focus on two countries that somewhat dominate the horticulture market, and have used big data very effectively. One of them is Chile, which is at the very southern end of South America. Its horticulture region is concentrated in the province of Valparaíso, from where more than two thirds of the country’s horticultural production is exported. Chile accounts for 50 per cent of the fruit exported from the southern hemisphere, and it is a relatively small country in terms of land mass. If you compare that with 1990, when their share was only 25 per cent, it’s now the No. 1 exporter of fruit in the southern hemisphere. So, there’s been an absolutely massive transformation of that industry. Worldwide, agriculture accounts for around 70 per cent of all fresh water use, but around 60 per cent, I understand, of this is wasted. So, by using big data to manage water effectively—. It was shown in Chile that by using irrigation researchers, they slashed their water use by 70 per cent in blueberry farming by using a network of wireless sensors. This is Chile’s third-largest fruit export, so, obviously, with massive savings like this, and two thirds of the world’s water extraction now being consumed by agriculture, smart water management systems won’t just be in demand, they’ll be absolutely essential.The second country is much closer to home, in Holland, the Netherlands. It’s one of the world’s largest exporter of horticultural projects, and at some times of the year it’s supplying nearly all the fruit and vegetables for most of Europe. Holland has 44 per cent of the worldwide trade in flowers, but also, through the use of hydroponic greenhouses, accounts for 50 per cent of the value of all fruit and vegetables produced in Holland. They have used big data to boost their productivity and safeguard their crops from unpredictable climate. The use of these hydroponic greenhouses has massively increased their food production. They’ve used data to analyse and balance their soils, and made effective use of natural fertilisers, so that they’ve refined their farming techniques through a green revolution, rather than adding more and more commercial artificial fertilisers. It makes plants less vulnerable to soil degradation and unpredictable weather by using these very large greenhouses, which you can see if you fly over anywhere in Holland. It means that horticulturists have more control over the conditions, which allows them to drive efficiency, reduce waste and expand production beyond the natural seasons. These hydroponic greenhouses really do offer precision horticulture, which I feel we really ought to be able to replicate here in Britain.So, I think this is a very important area that we need to be looking at, and I think that, having talked to the farming unions, their members are very open to new ideas, because they absolutely understand that change is on the way, inevitably, as a result of Brexit, and this is a really important and useful moment to give farmers the tools they need to diversify and to give them a guaranteed income.

Joyce Watson AC: I’d like now to call Neil Hamilton.

Neil Hamilton AC: Thank you, acting Presiding Officer. What an interesting debate this has been, and I’d like to congratulate Lee Waters on adding this intellectual veneer to our proceedings. It shows what a credit he is to our old school, and I’m sure Adam Price will agree on this what a great contribution it is making to the proceedings. Of course, my own contributions tend to cater for the rougher end of the oratorical market, but I’m very pleased to take part in this rather more high-level discussion.I have to admit I knew little about this topic until I researched it after the motion was put down on the order paper. But it is absolutely a very worthwhile thing for us to debate, because it’s yet another refutation, I think, of the Malthusian fallacy and shows that the limits to human ingenuity cannot be foreseen. And, as a result of the massive increase in population that we’ve had in our lifetimes, and the population increases that are in prospect, we will need to make massive increases in food production, and almost everybody who’s taken part in this debate so far recognises what a massive contribution big data can make to alleviating problems of poverty and hunger in the world, and I’m sure we all accept that.And, certainly, as the western world focuses less and less upon labour-intensive production, the use of technology is becoming even more important. It was very interesting to hear a practical farmer’s account, from Andrew R.T. Davies, of how this has affected his business over the course of the last 25 years. I think it’s very encouraging for us all that an industry that has, in the past, been regarded as somewhat old-fashioned, is, at the very lowest level of individual operation, now being able to take advantage of these techniques, which few of us, I think, would be able to explain how they operate to anybody else. It’s very easy to see the effects; it’s very difficult to understand the science and technology that goes to back them up.But, it is interesting that it is transforming our lives in so many different ways. I was very interested to hear what Jenny Rathbone had to say also about the way in which these techniques are being used in Holland, and some very interesting facts that she gave us about the proportion of the world trade in flowers and vegetables and so on that small countries are responsible for, which gives us, I think, great hope for thinking that, as the decades unfold, countries that are currently enveloped in the most desperate poverty will be able to improve the lives of their citizens in ever-growing numbers. So, it’s a spirit of optimism, most of all, that I think will emerge from this debate this afternoon.What is interesting is how affordable this technology is also, when you consider the costs of capital-intensive production in years gone by and how impossible it was for small businesses to afford similar techniques that are transformative in their effect. Small businesses—and farmers are the ultimate small businessmen in this country, and particularly in Wales—are able to take advantage of these new techniques in order to improve their businesses and make them more productive. So, I’m very pleased to make a contribution to this debate, even though I can add nothing by way of knowledge to what has been discussed, but once again to say how important it is that the Assembly should, from time to time, have these consensual debates so that we don’t always have to engage in knockabout and beat each other up in the Chamber. Once again, I’d like to express my gratitude to Lee Waters for adding so much to the quality of what we do.

Joyce Watson AC: I’d like to call Simon Thomas.

Simon Thomas AC: Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer—DPO dros dro neu beth bynnag ydych chi ar hyn y bryd—

Member of the Senedd: Chair.

Simon Thomas AC: Chair, yes, whatever. Thank you. I am very pleased to have an opportunity to speak in this debate and spare Lee Waters too much embarrassment for being praised too much by Neil Hamilton, I am sure. So, I thank him myself and add to that. I think what’s important in this debate is that we realise that this is already happening and agriculture is a mix of heritage, art and a lot of science and technology and industry. The industry bit is already driving this. As Andrew R.T. Davies said, most farmers will have GPS of some sort on their tractors already and will be able to do some sort of modelling like this.What we really are calling for in this debate is for the Welsh Government and for all of us to be at the forefront of this technology. In looking at how all this started I came across the first use of a unmanned aerial vehicle, which we’d now call a drone, to survey farmland in the United Kingdom, which was back in 2008. It was a joint research project between QinetiQ, which is Aberporth for those who know it, and Aberystwyth University, looking and surveying whether fertiliser applications were needed regarding the nitrogen levels of soil, and that was being done from the air. So, we’ve been there from the start here in Wales with the technology, the higher education institutions and the farmers working hand in hand, and now is the opportunity to move on for this next part.I think those of us who did study history rather than agriculture nevertheless will remember ‘Turnip’ Townshend, the reasonably well-known, hopefully, instigator of the first agricultural revolution that we had in the United Kingdom. He introduced the Norfolk crop rotation system, which then fed the industrial revolution. Without ‘Turnip’ Townshend we would not have had the industrial revolution because we simply couldn’t have fed the growing populations of our cities that then led on from that. We are seeing that now back in Wales. This is what I like about this: this is the combination of the old and the new together. Members of the Climate Change, Environment and Rural Affairs Committee who visited Bryn Gido farm near Llanarth in Ceredigion will remember the young farmer there, Anwen, who was looking at how she could improve her pasture for sheep. She was planting swedes, not turnips, but swedes for the sheep. Simply by planting the swedes, knowing the soil condition and knowing the grass growth, and in liaison with Aberystwyth, with the Institute of Biological, Environmental and Rural Sciences, knowing what grass to plant, when to plant it, how to plant it, and grass following swede in different fields, simply by doing that, the reduction in her cake costs had been enormous. From going through a very precarious existence she was in a much more sustainable one. That’s a traditional sheep farm, which you would not think when you look at a debate that says it is about big data and precision agriculture. You don’t think that’s about sheep farming, but it is precisely about sheep farming. And, in the same way as reflecting what Andrew R.T. Davies said about New Zealand, she was looking at the breed of sheep and the breeding of sheep and doing that then scientifically as well. That’s something you can do in one farmhouse on a hill in Ceredigion and it’s something that can be done throughout Wales now as we improve our farm data. It’s already been said how big data can assist us in this with weather, soil and air quality, crop maturity, equipment, labour costs, and all the savings and the investment that can result from that. But the real thing that I think I want to emphasise at this stage of the debate is that we do need something to be put in place in order for small farmers in particular to access that. What I don’t want to see happening within big data and precision agriculture is a similar situation that arose with GM. We’re not going down the GM route today, but GM started as a big corporate kind of process that told farmers how to farm and said you could only use certain fertilisers, you could only use certain pesticides, and it drove from a top-down approach that simply led to rebellion and unhappiness amongst farmers and then, of course, in consumers as well who didn’t think that that was the kind of food that they wanted to see. So, in order to avoid that, we have to involve farmers themselves in the planning of big data and that’s the point that I think Welsh Government can lead on.So, for example, if we’re going to have big data, they have to be stored. If they have to be stored, then access to those data and how the data are used—the moveable feast of the landscape, as Andrew R.T. Davies referred to it, I think—. Farmers have to be confident that those data are going to be used in a productive, useful way, not to penalise them, but in a way that helps them, together with their neighbours, to grow their farm businesses. So, who owns those data is important, as are how you liaise with HE institutions about the use of the data and whether the supercomputers that are being developed in our HE institutions now can be utilised for this purpose as well. I think that’s going to be an essential aspect.The other one, to turn to a more mundane but very important point, is that 13 per cent of our farmers in Wales today don’t have reliable access to the internet, and 60 per cent only have connection speeds of 2 Mbps. You can’t do big data—you can’t put up a drone—with an internet connection like that. You can’t maintain your information, share it and learn from each other with those sorts of access. So, big data have to go in hand with good high-speed internet access and mobile access in many farms as well.I think there’s huge potential for green skills—the growth of green skills—in the Welsh economy. Only 27 per cent of farmers do have formal training, but for the new generation coming in, of course, it’s nearly 100 per cent. This is a farming tradition in Wales that is keen to learn and keen to use their skills, and this is a real example of where Wales can lead the way.

Joyce Watson AC: I’d like to call Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank you very much, Chair. I just want to briefly endorse the final point made by Simon Thomas. I’m grateful that this issue has been aired in the Assembly and I welcome that very much.Innovation is something that I am generally eager to see us do more of in Wales. I think there’s something about the size of Wales and the scale of Wales that makes us an ideal place to innovate in a number of areas. I think, given the importance of agriculture as part of our social fabric here in Wales, that agriculture is a clear area for innovation. Of course, as we’ve already heard, there are plenty of examples of great innovation taking place, including in our HE institutions.There is a benefit to this innovation in economic terms. Agriculture and those who rely on farming for their livelihoods do have to do more with less these days, as do people in all areas. Technological developments and innovation in agriculture are going to allow that to happen. Farms where you had a host of servants working and doing that legwork are a thing of the past. The ability of the farmer these days to get more for less is more important than ever. Of course, there is an environmental benefit to this too, as we’ve heard, and a benefit in terms of feeding our population.The point, as I’ve said, that I want to make is similar to the one Simon Thomas made. It’s easy to think of rural Wales as slow-moving—somewhere that’s beautiful, but very far from the innovations of the twenty-first century—but that isn’t the case, of course. If we are looking to attest the position of rural Wales and our agriculture industry in this era of innovation, we must ensure that the connections are there so that people can share data and information, and I do think that this is a peg, once again, on which we can remind decision makers, either in Government or outwith Government, that we must consider our rural areas as areas where it is just as important, if not more important, to ensure that those connections and links are available. Physical links aren’t as obvious in rural areas, but the digital connections are crucially important, and I think that that, in and of itself, is important as we discuss the innovation that’s required in rural Wales.

Joyce Watson AC: I now call on the Cabinet Secretary for Environment and Rural Affairs, Lesley Griffiths.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you, Chair. I’m surprised that Lee Waters had some puzzled looks, because after you raised this with me during one of my questions sessions a couple of months ago, I had lots of people come up to me about precision agriculture. So, I think it’s really good that we’ve got this opportunity to debate this subject further today.Simon Thomas mentioned in his remarks that there is a great deal of activity going on in this area already, so I just want to set out the work that is going on and the support that the Welsh Government is giving to it.Innovation, as in all walks of life, really, is absolutely vital for agricultural systems to deliver improved productivity and efficiency and, of course, it continues to happen at a rapid pace. Progress in technologies available to our farmers means that there are opportunities for incorporating smart sensors, high-precision positioning systems and satellites into farming practices to reduce inputs and target them to where they’re most needed.The revolution in precision farming started in the arable and horticultural sectors with systems to target crop inputs and harvesting. Nowadays, as we’ve heard, there are also systems to support livestock enterprises that, for example, utilise sensors, monitoring activity, health and production.All these new technologies are driving the phenomenon known as big data, which is the capability to extract information and insight where previously it was not economically or technically possible to do so. Systems such as remote monitoring sensors, global positioning systems and DNA technology now have the capability to generate vast amounts of data at high speed.Agrimetrics is the first of four centres being established as part of the UK Government’s agri-tech strategy. That will support the revolution in the use of data science and modelling right across the food system sector. Integrating data across the agri-food supply chain, from farm production to the food industry, to retailers and consumers, are all aims of Agrimetrics. The Welsh Government is working closely with our stakeholders and delivery bodies to maximise agri-tech research income into Wales.So, what is the value of big data? Precision farming technologies offer us opportunities to collect data from multiple sources, which then create large, robust data sets. These data can be interrogated and translated into knowledge that will drive the next wave of innovation on farms. Farmers will no longer be dependent on spreadsheets of data from their own enterprises; they’ll be able to then take advantage of both national and global data.Amaeth Cymru, the strategic framework partnership group, which is chaired by Kevin Roberts, brings together key stakeholders and the Welsh Government to work in partnership and develop the strategic direction for Welsh agriculture in the lead up to and post Brexit. I see the work of this group as vital in achieving our long-term vision for Welsh agriculture, and this work has become even more important and urgent in light of the referendum outcome.Amaeth Cymru is developing a strategic road map for Welsh agriculture, which will set out how we intend to deliver our shared vision for Welsh agriculture going forward. One of the key considerations for the group will be future opportunities around research and development.So, as I said, there is a great deal of activity being undertaken currently. Through Farming Connect, Welsh Government is actively engaging with precision agriculture and establishing projects to demonstrate their benefits to a wide-range of farming systems. I would encourage farmers and foresters keen to know more about precision-farming technology and techniques to apply for funding through the European innovation partnership to further develop their ideas.Precision-farming techniques help farmers to select and apply the right inputs at the right time and at the right application rate. So, it’s really important that we have those targeted inputs; it can also save money too. For example, at one of our Farming Connect focus sites in south Wales, there is a project looking at the use of tractor-mounted nitrogen fertiliser sensors, which enable the sensitive application of nitrogen according to variation in cereal crop colour. The technology is billed as having the capability to be more accurate in terms of nutrient application than existing GPS technology.Another example: at a Farming Connect innovation site in Aberystwyth, we have a research programme project aiming to improve the understanding of animal behaviour and metabolism, whilst increasing productivity and reducing greenhouse gas emissions. For those Members who attended the Royal Welsh Show, at the Farming Connect stand, I met with the people who were running this scheme and listened to the benefits from them and, if there is any evaluation I can bring forward, I’d be happy to do that.So, in addition to the 12 Farming Connect projects specifically looking at precision agriculture across Wales, we also have the Welsh Government’s sustainable production grant that’s supporting a number of Welsh farmers to make the necessary investment to modernise and improve their on-farm inefficiencies. I think the point that a Member raised about small farms—I think it was Simon Thomas—is really important also. We need to make sure that they’re not left behind in this technology.So, these and other initiatives already under way, I think, will put Wales in its rightful place: right at the forefront of the development of precision agriculture. Diolch.

Joyce Watson AC: I thank you and I will now call on Huw Irranca-Davies to reply to the debate.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Thank you, Chair. Can I say what a good debate this has been? We’ve had seven contributions, including myself, plus, of course, the Cabinet Secretary, and I’ve been struck by the level of consensus on the potential for this technology in Wales and, as Lee Waters, who introduced the debate, says, to use this, as I think his phrase was, ‘western furnace of innovation’. I think he’s right, and Lee reminded us about the benefits that this technology can yield: potential crop yield improvements, environmental, benefits to farmers’ income both in this country and, as Jenny Rathbone also said as well, internationally as well. Where people are on a much more subsistence level of farming, the benefits could be, arguably, even greater. He talked about the innovations at Coleg Sir Gâr and at Gelli Aur farm and at Aberystwyth University—it’s great to pass by, actually, where those trials are taking place in Aberystwyth University on forage grasses—and the innovation that’s already going on and the potential of the application here in Wales.Andrew R.T. Davies reminded us, in fact, that some of this technology is already routinely in place, and GPS technology is used by many, many farmers nowadays—the use of satellite imagery for precision application of fertilisers. He urged us to rise to the challenge to develop these new growth areas, which was a common theme across many contributors today—indeed, I will give way.

Andrew RT Davies AC: I’m now moving on in life at the princely age of 48, and, as my sons keep telling me, I should be put out to pasture, so much so that our latest bit of big data kit, called the Scorpion, they keep me well away from for the damage I might cause with that. But it’s an important point that we need to be educating and allowing people to develop through the industry so they can make use of these data, because there’s no point in having them if you can’t use them.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Very much indeed. A point well made, which others have said as well. This has to be a collaboration between Government and industry—big industry, small industry—academia, research units, but also those front-end practitioners, the farmers themselves in the field, which I’ll turn back to in a moment.Jenny Rathbone my colleague talked—. And I thought it was a lovely phrase that she used, I think it was ‘intelligently harnessing the power of nature’, what this is about, getting more from less: less petrochemical input, less soil erosion, less soil impacting. A much more intelligent approach to farming that can, as was said by other contributors, sit well alongside—Simon Thomas went into this—traditional forms of farming. It’s not that one is to the exclusion of others; they can actually be well integrated.Neil Hamilton, in his contribution, talked about the Malthusian fallacy, but also talked about the potential of this. Interestingly—I know we disagree on this, but one of the potentials of this technology is to drive production back into those areas that are currently, through climate change, being impacted by desertification, denuding places that were the food baskets of the world, or flood inundation on a regular basis. That’s the potential these have.Simon Thomas took us back to the long-distant history of 2008, and the first use of a drone by Aberystwyth University in applied research on agricultural innovation. He also reminded us that it is about this marriage with traditional farming and the need to involve farmers themselves in taking this forward.Rhun ap Iorwerth used the classic phrase—yn Gymraeg, however—of ‘the size of Wales’ and the fact that, because we are small and we are dynamic, we can be, actually, the test bed of this technology. But I’ll return to that, because I think there’s stuff that we can do on collaboration, as well, right across the UK—and within Europe, curiously enough.The Cabinet Secretary—it was great to hear her talk about how this could embed itself within the agri-food strategy here, within the road map, going ahead, drawing our attention to the European innovation partnership funding that’s currently available and the sustainable production grant, and other support that is currently there to help farmers apply and develop this technology, and she usefully turned our attention to the fact that this is already being trialled on things like nitrogen fertiliser applications as well.

The Deputy Presiding Officer took the Chair.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: I just want to turn, and I’m not sure, madam deputy speaker, how many minutes we have—

Keep going—I’ll tell you when you sit down.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Thank you very much. In which case, I’ll try and rapidly do it. I had a wonderful visit—I think it was about two years ago, maybe three years ago—to Harper Adams University, the National Centre for Precision Farming. Tremendous work has been done there in their agricultural engineering innovation centre, and you will see the application of this, the big data, the internet of things. [Interruption.] You will see—okay—the strange high-tech end of this, with robotic machines with nobody on them working their way up the fields, individually singling out weeds to apply the right treatment to, individually applying nutrients in certain areas as well—very cost-effective, and using the technology that’s currently available. That’s why I say that, actually, some of the innovation within this should actually be done not only within Wales but actually across the borders, sharing that collaboration across universities and others right across the UK. We have the ability in Wales to do this, and also by sharing our know-how elsewhere.You look at the European-funded Copernicus satellite system and the ability that that has got now for exactly what Andrew R.T. Davies was saying: that we can zone down onto individual farms, not just the hectares and the acres, but the inches, in terms of application of fertiliser and so on, and to sustain certain crops. The GaugeMap is an interactive map, using open data, which provides updates on river levels and flows and groundwater data across England and Wales. Plantwise: a global programme using open data, which is something we haven’t touched on today, to help farmers lose less of what they grow to crop pests and diseases by providing an online and offline gateway to diagnostics, pest tracking and best practice in farming.All of these are possible, but we do have challenges. I’m keeping my eye on you, madam deputy speaker, just to make sure that you don’t suddenly shout me down. There are challenges. One of those that’s been identified is that there are very few data scientists or persons who know how to create and execute the algorithms necessary for analysing these large amounts of data. That’s an area that we can definitely lead in, as Lee Waters was saying. There’s often a common mismatch in the scale, precision and accuracy of data coming from different sources. Now, this mismatch can create an erroneous picture of what’s actually happening in different fields. And, of course, big data need to be quality-controlled before they’re used in these algorithms. If this is going to be smart farming, let’s make sure that the inputs are as good as the outputs in the actual field.So, there’s far more that I could say, but I know that time is running out. I do want to just flag up the Welsh Government’s open data plan, which could contribute to this; the Atlas of Living Wales and the national biodiversity network, which could contribute to this within Wales; the Lle geo-portal, a partnership between Welsh Government and Natural Resources Wales—it’s a hub for data and information gathering on a range of topics, mainly around the environment; and more and more and more.This has been a cracking debate, with a great deal of consensus. Let’s grab the opportunity here in Wales, but also grab the opportunity in working in collaboration with people right across the UK. Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you very much. The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Object. Therefore we’ll defer voting under this item until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

7. 7. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Business Rates

The following amendments have been selected: amendment 1 in the name of Jane Hutt, and amendment 2 in the name of Rhun ap Iorwerth. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected.

We now move to item 7, which is the Welsh Conservatives debate on business rates. I call on Russell George to move the motion.

Motion NDM6170 Paul DaviesTo propose that the National Assembly for Wales:1. Recognises that the retail industry employs 130,000 people in Wales, and makes a key contribution to the Welsh economy.2. Notes that the current shop vacancy rate in Wales stands at almost 14 per cent, and the projected rate of store closures is higher in Wales than anywhere else in the UK over the next two years.3. Regrets that the Welsh Government has not used innovative and supportive measures to help businesses through their transition to the Valuation Office Agency’s revaluations, leaving Welsh businesses to tackle high rates, alongside a system of temporary rebates, and a slow appeals process.4. Calls on the Welsh Government to:a) abolish business rates for all businesses with a rateable value of up to £12,000, and provide tapered support for those with a rateable value up to £15,000;b) take a proactive approach to radically reform the outdated business rates system, and make Wales the flagship nation in addressing the need to provide a more supportive business environment; andc) place an immediate cap on the multiplier, and a timetabled plan for a gradual reduction in rates.

Motion moved.

Russell George AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I would like to formally move this important motion in the name of Paul Davies and, in doing so, declare that I also have a share in a small business myself.The objective of this debate today is to recognise the massive contribution that small and medium-sized enterprises and the retail industry make to the Welsh economy. Small businesses are the lifeblood of the Welsh economy. A statistic that I often like to quote is that 99 per cent of all businesses in Wales are small businesses. If each of those had the resources to employ one additional member of staff, unemployment in Wales would effectively be wiped out.Now, one way of alleviating the pressure on small businesses and to free up much-needed cash would be for the Welsh Government to use the economic levers at its disposal to be the low-tax capital for business and take small businesses out of rates altogether. But I would say, please don’t take my word for it. With your permission, and technology allowing, Deputy Presiding Officer, I would now like to show some footage of individuals speaking about how they have been affected by business rates. Apart from the first business owner shown on the film, who approached me directly, the footage of the other individuals was collected by Assembly officials for the purpose of an inquiry into business rates by the Economy, Infrastructure and Skills Committee. So, I should say the showing of this video does not imply that the individuals who were filmed by Assembly officials are supporters of this motion or indeed any other amendment, and that their footage is being shown simply as background information about this issue. I appreciate that other committee members have indicated that they were content for these clips to be shown as well.

A DVD was shown. The transcription in quotation marks below is a transcription of the oral contributions on the DVD. The presentation can be accessed by following this link:

DVD presentation.

Megan Lawley: ‘Hello, my name is Megan. I have a clothes shop in Newtown. I've just had my new draft rates come through for April 2017, and they've gone up substantially. I'm now in the position where I have to make a decision whether I move to Shropshire, where I’d get full relief, or I close my business. I'd really appreciate that the Welsh Government could back small businesses and help people like me throughout the country.’Alex Martin Jones: ‘There were times when I was borrowing money off family to cover the business rates when I first started, because it kicks in straight away. The VAT bill you have a bit of play with and everything, but the business rates—bang! They kick in.’Chris Studt: ‘So, if you have just opened a business, then you should be at a stage where you're doing the place up. Should you really be paying rates whilst you're doing somewhere up? And should there be a little bit of bedding-in time, so that you can get the business on its feet?’Katia Fotiadou: ‘It would have helped if we'd had that little bit of relief, especially in the six months when we weren't trading, as there was no money coming in. There was only money going out. And yet, we had to still pay every month, for six months, half of what we pay for rent here as business rates. Maybe some discount for the first year, or for the six months, or something like that, I think, would probably work and encourage people to set up businesses in the empty units that are all over the place.’

Russell George AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. We heard from several small-business owners who are telling us, as politicians, to listen to them, and organisations such as the Federation of Small Businesses and the Welsh Retail Consortium have also joined in calling for fundamental reform of what I would say is an outdated business rates system. Megan in Newtown talked about the potential of having to move her business to Shropshire, where she’d be able to get full rate relief, and Alex in Wrexham talked about borrowing money off family in order to pay the business rates. And Chris and Katia questioned the immediate imposition of business rates on start-up businesses, which are, of course, playing their important part in reducing shop vacancies in an attempt to reverse the trend on high-street decline.Now, a tax cut for small business was a much-touted pledge by Labour candidates before the Assembly election—a pledge that has been, I would say, broken in the first year. The Labour Member for Mid and West Wales, Eluned Morgan—I appreciate she's not in her place today—went to the Hours cafe and bookshop in Brecon promising that businesses would, and I quote a Labour press release,‘breathe a sigh of relief if Labour is returned on May 5’because a Welsh Labour Government would cut the amount of business rates paid by small businesses in Powys. In reality, nothing could be further from the truth. The Welsh Government has broken this promise of a tax cut to SMEs and claimed that continuing with a scheme that's already been in place for a number of years is the tax cut. Now, this is what the FSB has said about this, and I quote them:‘to describe such a move as a tax cut for small businesses is blatantly misleading and the worst form of spin-doctoring.’Instead of the tax cut they promised, rate relief for small businesses in 2017-18 would remain exactly the same as in 2016-17, and many small firms now face a dramatic rise, of course, in their bills following rates revaluations. This is in contrast to the situation in England, where the UK Government has announced plans to increase rate relief for small businesses to ensure that no business with a rateable value of under £12,000 would pay rates at all. Now, I’d like to say to the Cabinet Secretary, please follow and take the lead of the UK Government, but, actually, I'd prefer to say, please let's have a better system in Wales to increase and support small businesses in Wales. Let's be ambitious. Let's have the best system of all the nations of the UK to support small business.I appreciate the Cabinet Secretary and I will have different views on what a tax cut is, but I do appreciate that the Cabinet Secretary is open to reform and I look forward to hearing his comments. I hope that there will be areas of common ground on which we can agree, and I do look forward to contributions from other Members during the debate this afternoon.

I have selected the two amendments to the motion. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected. I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Local Government to formally move amendment 1 tabled in the name of Jane Hutt. Cabinet Secretary.

Amendment 1—Jane HuttDelete points 3 and 4 and replace with:Reaffirms the independence of the Valuation Office Agency following the financial devolution of non-domestic rates to Wales.Notes the revaluation by the Valuation Office Agency is not designed to raise additional revenue and that while some rateable values have increased, overall they have fallen.Notes the Welsh Government’s:a) decision to extend the Small Business Rates Relief scheme for 2017-18, providing a tax cut for 70,000 small businesses in Walesb) decision to make the Small Business Rates Relief scheme permanent from 2018 providing small businesses with certainty that this tax cut will continue;c) commitment to review the Small Business Rate Relief scheme to make it simpler and fairer for businesses in Wales; andd) decision to introduce a £10m transitional relief scheme in April 2017 to provide additional help for small businesses receiving SBRR who have been affected by revaluation.

Amendment 1 moved.

Mark Drakeford AC: Formally.

Thank you very much. I now call on Adam Price to move amendment 2, tabled in the name of Rhun ap Iorwerth. Adam.

Amendment 2—Rhun ap IorwerthDelete point 4 and replace with:Calls on the Welsh Government to:a) expand the transitional relief available to small businesses affected by the 2017 non-domestic rates revaluation;b) abolish business rates for all businesses with a rateable value of less than £10,000 per year, and provide tapered relief for businesses whose rateable value is between £10,000 and £20,000;c) make all businesses during their first year of operation exempt from paying any rates in order to encourage new start-ups;d) introduce a split multiplier for small and large businesses as is the case in Scotland and England; ande) explore replacing business rates altogether with alternative forms of taxation which do not discourage employment, town centre regeneration and investment in plant and machinery.

Amendment 2 moved.

Adam Price AC: I’m very pleased to move the amendment on behalf of the Plaid Cymru group.I think there’s no two ways about it; this is an extremely regressive tax. If you look at the history of it, it goes back to 1601, actually—the introduction of the old Poor Law. Essentially, the problem with it was that, for centuries, of course, it was true that demand for land and property were essentially inelastic, because you didn’t have any options. If you wanted to trade, you needed to do so from a physical property. That no longer is the case, of course. Shops increasingly face their biggest competitors from online sales, and indeed even online sales that aren’t located in the UK. So, there’s a question of geography as well.The reason the tax has survived, of course, is that it is easy to collect. Small businesses tend to pay their taxes. They can’t afford the kind of innovative tax evasion techniques that are available to larger corporate businesses and that’s why it has remained on the books as a tax, but I think it’s high time now that we moved to actually abolish this tax, and replace it with something that is fit for purpose for the twenty-first century.In essence, the problem with the tax, as we heard in some of the contributions, is that it falls disproportionately on those businesses that are least able to pay. If you’re a successful and profitable business, as a proportion of your turnover you pay less. It’s the marginal business, actually, where we can see a situation where the tax actually tips them over into a loss, and then they have to close. It’s the start-up business, which, as we heard, needs that extra support in the initial years, that is disproportionately affected. It makes investment in commercial property unattractive compared to investment in residential property, and that has a deleterious effect, of course, on our town centres.It’s a tax that we need to get rid of. That’s why we suffer from review fatigue. How many reviews have we had, from this Government, from previous Governments, et cetera? There were about three task and finish groups that I could find reports on, even in the last few years here. Unfortunately, because it’s an attractive tax in terms of the Government, because it does provide a stable source of revenue, it’s not a case of death by 1,000 cuts; it’s life by 1,000 cuts. So, what we’ve seen is a whole series of reliefs, and we’ve had a few announced—additional ones, or changes to existing reliefs—by the Chancellor.So, it’s kept the tax alive by making a bad tax a little bit better. Actually, what we need is to get on with the longer-tem review and replace this tax. There are interesting proposals—the Mirrlees review; Gerry Holtham has suggested moving towards a form of land value taxation; there’s a whole body of literature going back over a 100 years on that. There’s an interesting counter proposal on a sales tax, which could actually equalise competition between online retailers and physical retailers. This has happened in the United States of America, where, to help Main Street, they’ve introduced a local sales tax so that Amazon is at least operating on a level playing field compared with local businesses. It may be that that idea of a local sales tax, freed as we may be, from the perspective of some of our Members opposite, from the shackles of EU law in terms of introducing regional rates and local rates of sales taxation—we have that ability now to look at the prospect of a local sales tax. Wales could innovate. Wales could get rid of this outdated, 400-year old method of business taxation and actually show the rest of the UK what we can do in terms of actually producing a form of business taxation that doesn’t punish innovation and enterprise and investment in our town centres, but rewards it instead.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: I don’t think I need to tell anyone here that small businesses are indeed the lifeblood of our economy in Wales, making up 99.4 per cent of all businesses in Wales. In 2015-16, the number of SME start-ups rose by 2.1 per cent—that’s 99,860—all small businesses, all out there on their own. Many are sole traders who start off small and they have many competing and conflicting priorities just to be able to keep the shop door open.We all know of many wonderful examples in our own constituencies, many promoting our local tourism industry—especially our hospitality businesses, our retailers on our high streets and our fantastic services industry. SMEs make up 61 per cent of private-sector employment, providing the equivalent of 673,600 full-time jobs. That’s a colossal amount of people. Many of them do it completely independent of any support from the public sector or, indeed, this Welsh Labour Government.But, support for SMEs is lacking, particularly in Wales. I’m glad to see that the United Kingdom Government actually do take small businesses very seriously. Here, we’ve seen an increase of just 20 medium-sized businesses since 2014. Yesterday, Barclays published findings showing that the proportion of high-growth SMEs in Wales fell by 2.2 per cent in the last 12 months, the second worst decline in the UK after Scotland and compared to all regions of England, which have seen and witnessed an increase.The Welsh Government administered just 10 grants a day through Finance Wales—and that’s across the whole of Wales—last year. Professor Dylan Jones-Evans has stated that the funding gap between the finance that Welsh SMEs need and what they can access is £500 million a year. That’s a lot of money, you know, if you’re a small business. The Wales development bank appears to be simply a re-packaged version of Finance Wales. Various proposals for a development bank have been proposed. In fact, we, the Welsh Conservatives, have actually come up with good ideas far better than Finance Wales. Even now, as part of its deal with Plaid Cymru, the Welsh Labour Government is very reluctant to come forward with any detail about the forthcoming Welsh development bank, despite it due to actually be running next year.For us to make the debate meaningful today, though, the National Assembly for Wales must be able to scrutinise any development bank’s business case in order to ensure that businesses are fully supported through the proposals and that the failings of Finance Wales, which we’re all too familiar with, over many years, are fully addressed. What we are concerned about is that it will be a continuation of Finance Wales, which has long been deemed unfit for purpose and lacking in engagement. Perhaps the Cabinet Secretary might be able to shed more light on this.The levels of business rate relief in Wales is putting our SMEs at a distinct disadvantage compared to similar business in England and Scotland. The Welsh Government has not supported businesses through the valuation office’s revaluation process, discretionary hardship relief is too often not awarded where needed and a better rate relief is available to SMEs in England and Scotland. For 2017-18, it is estimated that a business with a rateable value of £12,000 will be liable to pay just under £6,000 in business rates in Wales, whilst in England that figure would be zero. A business valued at £10,000 would owe an amount of £3,323. In Scotland, that figure would be zero.The Federation of Small Businesses has criticised the Welsh Labour Government, and I do too, over their spin on their manifesto pledge for tax cuts to small businesses. Deputy Llywydd, the FSB are correct, making small business rate relief permanent simply does not imply any tax cut whatsoever.The Welsh Conservatives have long been supporters of our small businesses and we shall continue to be so. We have several proposals to support them: the creation of a small business hub, ensuring our SMEs are truly represented, providing a clear point of contact, improved access to support and easy to navigate; a regional development bank—businesses to access finance on the high street and on their own doorstep; much-improved business rate relief, with rates abolished for all businesses with a rateable value up to £12,000 and tapered for those up to £15,000. Llywydd, I have hoteliers locally paying business rates of around £120,000, retailers paying £70,000 a year—

Are you winding up, please?

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: [Continues.]—far higher than their rents. Llywydd, we welcome a review of business rates, however it’s too little, too late. We call for an immediate cap on the multiplier and take a proactive approach to radically reform our really outdated business rates system in Wales.

Jeremy Miles AC: Could I just say, as a member of the committee, with the other members who are here today, how grateful we were to the stakeholders who came to discuss this issue with us over breakfast about a month ago? We had a very interesting morning, and I’d encourage everyone to read the report for a balanced view of the discussion that we had that morning.Mae ardrethi busnes yn amlwg yn rhan bwysig o unrhyw wariant busnes ac yn enwedig yn achos busnesau bach, felly mae’n iawn, wrth gwrs, ein bod yn gwneud yn siŵr eu bod yn addas i’r diben, ac rwy’n falch fod Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet wedi nodi bwriad i adolygu sawl agwedd ar y drefn ardrethi annomestig. Un o’r pethau a ddaeth yn amlwg yn y drafodaeth a gawsom yn y brecwast i randdeiliaid oedd bod y rhai sy’n deall sut y mae ardrethi busnes yn gweithio yn dweud eu bod yn eithaf syml, yn gyffredinol, yng Nghymru; mae’n mynd yn fwy cymhleth pan fyddwch yn edrych ar ostyngiadau ac eithriadau ac yn y blaen. Ond wedi dweud hynny, mae yna ddiffyg dealltwriaeth gyffredinol o hyd, mewn gwirionedd, ynglŷn â’r sail y cânt eu cyfrifo arni.

Russell George AC: Will you give way?

Jeremy Miles AC: Certainly, yes.

Russell George AC: I do agree; that was an issue that was raised with us. I think part of the issue is that there’s a confusion between—. It’s not a Welsh Government problem here, but it’s the valuation office that sets the valuation, it’s the local authority that collects the funding, and then it’s the Welsh Government that distributes the money centrally. I think businesses just don’t understand that, and that’s part of the issue. It’s not the Welsh Government’s responsibility entirely, but that’s part of the issue that is causing, I think, a lot of the confusion.

Jeremy Miles AC: Absolutely. That is, in fact, what we heard, and I was going to hope that the Welsh Government could take steps to help clarify that as part of the review, but, obviously, recognising it’s an issue across all parts of the UK in—

Hefin David AC: Will the Member take an intervention on that point?

Jeremy Miles AC: Yes, certainly.

Hefin David AC: I think, with that recognition, I think perhaps Russell George would recognise the Conservatives have grossly underestimated the complexities involved in reviewing business rates to make a more progressive system, but that’s what the Government has committed to do, so that’s indeed what we’re likely to see.

Jeremy Miles AC: Thank you for that clarification. The other major issue that came up in that discussion, I think, was the question of revaluation and the period between revaluations. Gaps, obviously—lengthy gaps—can mean unfair conditions for some businesses, where the valuation doesn’t track the general economic performance, and I think it’s clear from the latest revaluations in Wales that the effects of the financial crisis are still very much being felt here. While overall values in England have gone up, largely as a result of the strong economic performance in the south-east of England, in Wales, of course, most businesses will face lower bills as a result. Either way, more frequent revaluations will help to iron that out, and I would ask the Welsh Government to look at that as part of the review. The motion calls for us to look to become a flagship nation, when it comes to business rates, and, in fact, Russell George expressly asked us to look to the UK Government for inspiration on some of these things. On transitional relief, where Janet Finch-Saunders was very keen for us to take our lead from England, I commend the Welsh Government for not following the example of the Conservative Government in Westminster, who’ve made ratepayers themselves, who’ve seen a reduction in their rateable value, bear the burden of funding those who’ve seen theirs go up. So, the Welsh Government’s chosen to fund that itself, which is a clear signal of its support for the sector, and one of several ways in which I’d say that the system here is already fairer and more robust than the English system.The most striking difference, I think, is the Conservative Government in Westminster’s plans for a redistribution, effectively, of business rates income from poorer councils to richer councils, allowing them to keep 100 per cent of their business rates. That obviously compounds the inequalities that already exist, and if that were to be replicated in Wales, it would be hugely detrimental to large swathes of the country.We also heard warnings, not reflected in the video clips, about the dangers of following the appeals process that has been introduced in England, which has been seriously adverse to business in terms of the length of time taken and the costs incurred. I’m sure the Cabinet Secretary will have regard to those warnings when he brings forward his consultation on appeals specifically. I gently point out to those on the Conservative benches, in particular, who’ve asked us to be inspired by the English example, that if the test is what proportion of your small businesses is exempt from 100 per cent business rates, our system here, which covers 50 per cent of our small businesses, is doing pretty well against an English system where that figure is only a third.But the motion is broader than simply business rates and looks at support for the retail sector more generally, which taps into a wider discussion about how we can revitalise our town centres in the face of real economic forces pulling in the opposite direction. I’d add that many towns, including Neath in my own constituency, have taken advantage of Welsh Government support to develop business improvement districts, which obviously aren’t universally popular, but they are an opportunity for close collaboration between local government, business and other stakeholders.I draw attention to comments in the latest deep place study that Steffan Lewis mentioned earlier in today’s proceedings, which I think bear some reflection about devolving further economic development powers to a local level, and looking imaginatively at pop-up business premises and pop-up shops and so forth.I think one of the fundamental reasons why our town centres are in the situation they’re in is because of the squeeze on the household budgets and disposable incomes of those who use them most, which I’m afraid to say today’s autumn statement hasn’t done anything to address.

Mohammad Asghar (Oscar) AC: For generations, our town centres have been the trading heart of our communities. They are at the core of healthy and prosperous local economies, a source of civic pride and the focal point of community life. But today too many of our high-street shops are in decline, with fewer customers and empty shop units.Changes to people’s lifestyles have meant changes to the way they shop. The development of out-of-town retailing in some cases has had a detrimental effect on town centres across Wales. Shoppers like the convenience and choice offered by out-of-town retailers who provide free parking. Footfall in retail parks in Wales has seen an increase of over 4.6 per cent. This has caused a subsequent decline in footfall in our high streets. E-commerce is one of the fastest-growing markets in Europe. Retail figures for Great Britain in September this year show a 22 per cent increase in online sales compared with the same month last year.So, our high streets are under pressure. This is reflected in shop vacancy rates. In 2014, 159 high-street shops closed in Newport. At present, one in eight retail premises in Wales stands empty. The latest Local Data Company report ranks Newport as one of the worst-performing town centres for retail and leisure vacancies, with a rate of over 25 per cent.Welsh Conservatives have been calling for many years for a strategy to revive our high streets. And yet, in spite of warm words from successive Welsh Governments, it is clear that little has been achieved. We need urgent action to revitalise our high streets as centres of economic growth. We need a clear management strategy for our town centres. Poor parking facilities, high parking charges, traffic congestion and the lack of public transport all serve to deter customers from shopping in town centres, and in certain other areas. More importantly, there are not many public toilets, not many children’s playfields, and, finally, they’re not very friendly for disabled people to go across and walk through the high street. We need to promote free parking schemes, convenient public transport and park-and-ride schemes, with the aim of making town centres pedestrian and cycle-friendly. Plans should encourage a genuine mix of shops and offices in town centres, as well as housing, to bring people into those areas, particularly at night-time. And we need to look again at business rates, which remain a significant barrier to the growth and success of businesses in Wales.Deputy Presiding Officer, we saw the film, you heard, ladies and gentlemen, my colleagues here, but one typical example happened in my constituency office. A constituent came to my office—he has been running a shop for the last 14 years on the main road, and he’d just expanded a shop within his shop, where his office was, to remove the office premises and expand a couple of gondolas and make bigger his shopping area. Guess what? The valuation office turn up and they increase his rates. The shop was unexpanded, the area was unexpanded, only the gondolas, the shopping commodities, were increased. Fivefold, from £3,000 to £15,000, the rates were increased for this business. So, what he did was he sold his business. That is one typical example, very recently.On the High Street in Newport, the rents are normally within the range of £14,000 and rates are, virtually, around about the same figure. How can a new business run a business with that sort of attitude? There are some innovative ideas I think the Minister should consider. Firstly, trading should be totally free for any trade. Secondly, tapered relief based on the first year profit; in the third year, exactly the same—the second-year profit margin. Very innovative ideas that can give a new incentive to new entrepreneurs and new businesses to grow and thrive on our high streets. That is one of the reasons I think our businesses on the high street are so much in decline that, sometimes, it’s a no-go area, especially in the night-time.As I said, business rate relief provides an opportunity to support enterprise and stimulate economic growth. Abolishing rates for businesses with a rateable value below £12,000 and tapering relief up to £15,000—Deputy Presiding Officer, we’ve been saying this on this side of the Chamber for many years. I think it’s about time the Government listened to us. Our proposal would see 73 per cent of business premises taken out of rates altogether. Presiding Officer, we all want to see a bustling high street, thriving local business and a positive community engagement. Vibrant high streets are the key, lasting—

Are you winding up, please?

Mohammad Asghar (Oscar) AC: I call on Welsh Government to put high-street regeneration at the top of their agenda. Thank you.

David J Rowlands AC: I also want to concentrate on the high-street businesses. It is an incontrovertible fact that there is a dramatic decline in high-street shopping across the whole of Wales. This, of course, is a problem shared throughout the rest of the UK, but it seems Wales has been hit harder than many other parts of the country. We have to ask the question: can this decline be halted, or at least alleviated?One very salient fact, heard time and time again from those engaged in the high-street retail industry, is that of parking fees. Parking fees are a direct tax on the retail trade. Yes, there are many other problems, pointed out today, particularly with regard to rates et cetera, most of which have been addressed by previous speakers, but I believe this is one aspect that cannot be ignored and is instantly redeemable. The problem is, of course, councils find this revenue flow, sometimes substantial, a very welcome addition to their budgets, so much so that many councils have chosen to increase this cash flow year on year. For instance, Newport was up 113 per cent between 2014 and 2015. Bridgend had an increase of 108 per cent for the same years, as did Merthyr at 83 per cent, and Carmarthen was up 76 per cent—

Dawn Bowden AC: Will you take an intervention?

David J Rowlands AC: Yes, of course.

Dawn Bowden AC: Can I just ask the Member if he can confirm that, although the daily rates for parking in Merthyr are £3.50, there is actually a monthly parking rate of only £29, which is a considerable reduction for anybody having to use those car parks on a regular basis?

David J Rowlands AC: Yes, thank you, Dawn. I fully appreciate that, but we are talking about people who are casual shoppers most of the time, and they would not be wanting to get one of these monthly tickets.The increases in Newport beggars belief, given that the town has lost out to Cwmbran town centre, which has offered free parking for many years, and resulting in Newport, as Asghar has already pointed out, having the highest shop vacancy figure of any town in Wales. And returning to Carmarthen, when the parking meters were vandalised, resulting in a two-week absence of parking fees, retailers in the town reported an increase of between 15 and 25 per cent in sales. Parking fees are being reinstated in full by Carmarthenshire County Council.Some councils attempt to legitimise this tax by pointing to upkeep costs for car parks—one even suggesting that it costs them £145 per parking space per year. Well, personally I’ve not come across one of what must be a gold-plated parking space. Whilst we realise that parking fees are the responsibility of local authorities, there are many ways the Welsh Government can use to—well, let’s put it as mildly as possible—encourage those authorities to review their car park policies. I urge the Welsh Government to look again at what it can do to take away this blight on the high street business. Thank you.

Andrew RT Davies AC: I welcome the opportunity to take part in today’s debate, albeit about half an hour ago I wasn’t taking part in the debate, but now I am. So, if the Chamber can bear with me, I’ll be grateful. But it is a really important issue, and the motion that is before us today touches on—as the Member for Neath highlighted—regeneration of the high street and the importance of that regeneration being underpinned by viable businesses that have cash going through their businesses. Business rates is one of the simpler systems that take money out of those small businesses that desperately need to retain cash to create jobs and create opportunities for investment.This isn’t the Conservative Party coming here and demanding of the Minister to do things and just putting a wish list before him, as very often might happen here on a Wednesday afternoon, because the Conservatives, in fairness, have a strong record, whether it might be on business rates or high-street regeneration. David Melding, when he was the business and economy spokesman, back in 2009 I think it was—in the third Assembly—actually brought forward our business rates policy of bringing forward business rate relief for businesses up to £12,500, tapered up to £15,000. During debate after debate in this Chamber, the then economy Minister, Ieuan Wyn Jones, rubbished those claims and said that it was completely unreasonable to request that for businesses, and ultimately the Welsh Government, time and time again, turned a deaf ear to those pleas—pleas that were underpinned by representations made by the Federation of Small Businesses, the Institute of Directors, the Confederation of British Industry and many businesses and chambers of commerce around Wales. And yet here we are, in 2016, with a revaluation that has just been undertaken that is placing a huge question mark over the viability of many, many small and medium-sized businesses on high streets the length and breadth of Wales.I appreciate, from what the First Minister said yesterday when he was touching on this point, that he seems to think that representations are only coming from Cowbridge and the Vale of Glamorgan and Monmouthshire via Nick Ramsay and other representations from Monmouthshire. I have to say that the representations that I’ve received in the meetings that I’ve attended seem to have this issue across the whole of Wales, and it is an issue that the Welsh Government does need to respond to. That, surely, is what our role is: to come here and actually make the Government of the day aware of our postbags and aware of the representations we are receiving.So, I do hope that the Minister will use this opportunity of the debate today. Obviously, the Government have put an amendment down—a ‘delete all’ amendment—but I do hope that the Minister, in his address to the Chamber this afternoon, will use that positively to outline the measures that the Welsh Government will take. I understand that he will draw on the £10 million transitional fund that has been put forward by the Government to date, but businesses and business leaders are clearly saying that that just clearly isn’t meeting the need of businesses with the valuation exercise that has been undertaken, and the bills that small businesses on the high street, in particular, are facing and will have to be paying as of 1 April next year.It was, in some respects, encouraging to see the First Minister yesterday actually allude to the fact that there might be—there might be—a little bit of movement in this area. Again, I would hope that the finance Minister will use his response to the debate today to maybe give some light in this tunnel. We can argue whether the English system is better or the Welsh system is better. The fact of the matter is there are many thousands of businesses the length and breadth of Wales that, if they do not receive a bigger helping hand, will not be around this time next year. That, surely, should be the pre-requisite of the Government to address these concerns.I would also like to spend a little bit of time of my address, irrespective of the merits of the scheme that has been put forward to date from the Welsh Labour Government here, on the Valuation Office Agency appeal process, which is another area that has been pointed out to me as a cause for concern, and in particular the length of time that the valuation office is taking to respond to requests from businesses and the time it is taking for businesses to get on to the valuation office’s website to actually see what their new valuation is, and actually see the documentary evidence as to how that valuation has been arrived at. I draw as reference—and, as I said, if I’d realised I was speaking, I certainly would have brought the letter down that I received yesterday from the Hare and Hounds in Aberthin, which is a public house that some people in this Chamber may or may not know, on the substantial increase that they are facing in their business rates. The writer to me highlighted the length of time of the process that they would have to go through in the appeals mechanism, to understand in the first place the way they could appeal and then the way, the methodology, in which the valuation office had arrived at their substantial increase in business rates. This is a business that is facing that demand having to be met in little over four months’ time, and so, I would hope again that the Cabinet Secretary will be able to give us some assurances in his response today as to what level of support and understanding he has, that the valuation office is able to give to businesses in the appeals process, and also to give confidence to Members that businesses will not be penalised if they find obstacles put in their way in progressing those appeals. And I do urge the Chamber today to support the motion that’s before us that does seek to put that plank of support on the floor for small businesses to walk across and, ultimately, be there this time next year.

Thank you very much, and I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Local Government, Mark Drakeford.

Mark Drakeford AC: Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer.Wel, agorodd Russell George y ddadl, ac ategaf yr hyn a oedd ganddo i’w ddweud wrth bwysleisio cyfraniad pwysig y diwydiant manwerthu i economi Cymru, drwy gyflogaeth uniongyrchol yn y diwydiant a thrwy gysylltiadau’r gadwyn gyflenwi. Gwnaeth Jeremy Miles gyfres o bwyntiau pwysig ynglŷn â sut y gellir cefnogi economïau lleol a chanol trefi, a gosododd Mohammad Asghar ac Adam Price y cyd-destun cyfnewidiol y mae’n rhaid i’r stryd fawr weithredu ynddo heddiw, o doiledau cyhoeddus i siopa ar y we. A thynnodd David Rowlands sylw at y ffaith fod y ffactorau hyn yn mynd yn llawer ehangach na Chymru. Yn ei gyfraniad, canolbwyntiodd yn arbennig ar effaith ffioedd parcio ar y stryd fawr. Rwy’n edrych ymlaen at ei gefnogaeth yn y ddadl ar y gyllideb derfynol pan fydd yn awyddus, yn ddiau, i groesawu’r £3 miliwn sy’n rhan o’n cytundeb â Phlaid Cymru ar y gyllideb ddrafft ac sydd yno’n benodol er mwyn gostwng ffioedd parcio yn ein stryd fawr, ond i wneud hynny mewn ffordd sy’n ein galluogi i gasglu’r dystiolaeth gadarn a gwneud asesiad priodol o effaith y ffioedd hynny ar nifer yr ymwelwyr â’n strydoedd mawr.Ddirprwy Lywydd, rwy’n gobeithio y gwnewch chi faddau i mi os byddaf, yn yr hyn sydd gennyf i’w ddweud, yn canolbwyntio’n fwy penodol ar y thema sydd wedi’i hadlewyrchu amlaf yn y ddadl y prynhawn yma, sef effaith ardrethi annomestig a’r ymarfer ailbrisio diweddar. Mae’n bwysig fy mod yn nodi hanes yr ymarfer hwnnw. Mae’r gofyniad i gynnal ailbrisiad bob pum mlynedd wedi’i nodi mewn statud, ond penderfynodd Llywodraeth y DU ohirio ailbrisiad 2015 am resymau na fydd angen i’r Aelodau yma ddyfalu llawer i ddychmygu pam fod y dyddiad hwnnw’n anghyfleus iddynt. Yn anfoddog, a chan ystyried yr effaith ar dalwyr ardrethi ar hyd y ffin, a’r rhai sydd ag eiddo yng Nghymru yn ogystal â Lloegr, penderfynwyd gohirio’r ailbrisio yng Nghymru hefyd, ac mae rhan o’r prynhawn yma yn ymwneud ag ymdrin ag effaith yr oedi hwnnw.Jeremy Miles referred to the economy committee’s report, and I warmly welcome the report, too. There were a number of interesting aspects, as we saw at the beginning of the debate, in the way that the committee had gone about gathering its information.Rwy’n cytuno â nifer o’r argymhellion yn yr adroddiad diddorol hwnnw ac edrychaf ymlaen at ymateb yn ffurfiol iddo. Rwy’n credu y dylem edrych ar ddichonoldeb ailbrisio amlach, a fyddai’n helpu i lyfnhau’r newid gêr sydyn a welwn a’r hyn sy’n digwydd pan fyddwch yn oedi cyn ailbrisio. Fel y mae’r adroddiad ei hun yn ei ddweud, os ydym i wneud hynny—os ydym i newid, er enghraifft, i gylchoedd tair blynedd—ni all ddigwydd yn syml drwy gyflymu’r system bresennol a gwneud iddi weithio’n gyflymach; byddai’n rhaid i ni gyflawni’r ymarfer ailbrisio mewn ffordd wahanol. Er mwyn gwneud hynny, byddai’n rhaid i ni ddibynnu ar Asiantaeth y Swyddfa Brisio, oherwydd unwaith eto, mae’n bwysig—[Torri ar draws.] Ie, Andrew.

Andrew RT Davies AC: I’m grateful to you for taking an intervention. Obviously it’s been touched on in the debate—business rates and the valuation of property are a longstanding tax system in this country. Therefore, by your comments, do you believe that any reform of that system would rely on a property base to it, rather than maybe a turnover tax system or some form of recognition of the internet? Because you’re alluding to the fact that maybe any reform would be property based in its foundation.

Mark Drakeford AC: No, Chair, I’ll address that point now. I would have come to it later, but I’ll do it now, by all means. I was simply referring to one of the recommendations in the Economy, Infrastructure and Skills Committee’s report about the current system. Am I interested in exploring an alternative system, a reformed system, for non-domestic rates? I am. I’ve set work in hand. Does that have to be property based? I don’t think it necessarily has to. As we heard in Adam Price’s contribution, there are a series of alternatives that are already well rehearsed in terms of land value taxation, a sales tax, or a local income tax, as Plaid Cymru’s sister party in Scotland has advocated. What we lack are hard data that would show how those alternatives would actually and practically impact in the Welsh context. The research that I’ve commissioned is about looking at how we would apply those ideas. I think the merits of the ideas are well rehearsed. There’s lots of work already done. What we lack is applied understanding of whether or not they would lead to better outcomes in the Welsh context. If we can do that, then we’ll have a better informed debate about whether a more fundamental shift in the way that we raise money in this way would be right in the future, and I hope we’ll be in that position during this Assembly term.For now, we are obliged to operate within the system that we have, where we have a valuation office. It’s a statutory body, it is entirely independent from Welsh Government, it carries out revaluations, it reaches those conclusions, the parameters are enshrined in primary legislation, but the revaluation must be revenue neutral. While there are firms, absolutely—I understand, and I have read letters from individuals in this position—who find their bills going up, that can only happen because there are many other businesses in Wales who find their bills going down. Revaluation raises no more money at all. It simply redistributes the burden in a way that is fairer because of revaluation. If we didn’t have revaluation, the system becomes more and more unfair year on year, and that’s a point recognised in the committee’s report.The VOA published its draft rating list on 30 September, and it did that to give ratepayers a six-month window to check the detail for their property and its associated valuation. Ratepayers can use those six months to notify the VOA of any errors that they believe have been included in that revaluation, and to ask for the VOA to reconsider it. That does happen. Once the new list comes into effect, ratepayers who still dispute their valuation can appeal, first of all to the VOA itself, and then there are rights of appeal right up to the High Court. Approximately 35 per cent of all appeals do go on to result in a change to the rating list.I agree that the appeals take too long and the system is too cumbersome, and I will bring forward proposals to reform the appeals system here in Wales. But I won’t be doing it in the way that the system has been reformed in England, where I believe the table has been tilted too far against the ratepayer, and too much in favour of the VOA.Now, because we know that there are patterns of gains and losses, we know that we have to introduce a system to smooth the impact for those who are adversely affected. That’s why we have a £10 million transitional reliefs scheme, and it will provide additional support to more than 7,000 ratepayers in Wales. It will be fully funded by the Welsh Government, unlike the system in England, which simply involves taking money from one set of gainers to try and give it to losers. We will reform our £100 million small business rate relief scheme. I’ll take a number of the points made in the debate this afternoon in that reform, and we’ll consult widely with stakeholders on the design of a permanent scheme where I think we can do better, provide more help to the businesses we want to help, and so see our high streets thrive better in the future.

Thank you very much. I call on Nick Ramsay to reply to the debate—Nick.

Nick Ramsay AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer, and can I thank the Members who’ve taken part in this debate this afternoon? It’s a very timely debate given the consequences of next April’s rates revaluation are now becoming clear—and I would say only recently becoming clear, certainly to the businesses out there that are going to be faced with increases.As Russ George said in opening, the situation we find ourselves in here is in direct contrast to that in England, where the UK Government have announced plans to increase rate relief for small firms, ensuring that no company with a rateable value of less than £12,000 would pay any rates at all. I’ve heard what a number of Members have said in this Chamber this afternoon, criticising the situation across the border in England. Certainly, it isn’t perfect. No system of taxation is ever perfect, or indeed business rates revaluation, but there’s no doubt at all that businesses in my constituency are looking across that border and they are seeing aspects of the way the revaluation has been handled in England that are better than have happened here or certainly are better than are promised here. So, I would bear that in mind. This is clearly not the perfect situation across the border, but I think the Welsh Government would do well to look across the border and to look at ways that we can improve the sort of support that we’ve got here.The businesses I’ve spoken to—and there have been many; I’ve got just a handful of the e-mails I’ve received in the last couple of days. I can’t remember, since being elected to this Assembly, having an issue that has caused such anguish in such a short space of time and generated such a flurry of e-mails. I can see David Rowlands nodding; this is obviously not just a situation that is affecting my office. There really is anger out there. There is despair, I would say. I even had an invite to a closing-down sale from one shop in Monmouth for next April/May, after this is due to take effect. So, let us be under no illusion at all about the extent of concern and worry that there is out there across Wales in those areas that are affected by these increases.I appreciate that this is not a problem across the whole of Wales. We are not saying it is. There are certainly, as the Cabinet Secretary said, businesses that have actually done quite well from the business rates revaluation. That is an aspect of any revaluation; you would expect that. I think what we haven’t seen before is the scale of the detriment to the large minority of those businesses affected. I think what is becoming clear, as Andrew R.T. Davies said in his contribution, is that the scale of the number of businesses that are affected by this problem is now increasing. We weren’t quite aware of the number of areas affected. We knew that Cowbridge was affected. I knew that Monmouth was affected. But I now know that Chepstow is affected and other rural areas, so this is a far greater problem than we first anticipated.Those businesses that are affected are facing huge hikes—10 per cent in some cases. Of course, as we’ve said—. And higher than that in a few other cases; I know one business in Chepstow that is facing up towards a 100 per cent increase due to different conditions. This has been exacerbated by the multiplier, which I understand is a necessary condition of maintaining a revenue-neutral approach to revaluation. But, nonetheless, the multiplier is affecting this and, of course, then the absence of an adequate system of rate relief, which those businesses need to see.Let’s be frank, as many Members across the Chamber have been, about what we’re talking about here: this is nothing less than the nail in the coffin for many businesses across this country. We talk a lot in this Chamber, as Mohammad Asghar said, about the need to support businesses, of retail premises, the need to regenerate our high streets. We’ve had debates on that and other parties have, and we’ve had committee reports on regenerating our high streets, but all of this will be for nought if, at the end of the day, we do not address the problem that our businesses are facing, not in 10 years’ time or 20 years’ time, but next year, when this fully comes into effect. So, unless we tackle this head-on now, then a lot of the other discussions that we’ve been having in this Chamber over the last few years will be academic.As our motion highlights, the current shop-vacancy rate is already at almost 14 per cent, with the projected rate of store closures higher in Wales than anywhere else in the UK over the next two years. So, we, sadly, are not starting from a great place at the outset of this process. So, we really cannot afford for things to get worse. We cannot afford not to tackle this problem head-on and to make sure that these companies, these businesses, that need support, get it.Adam Price—in your comments, Adam, you made a very interesting number of points, actually, calling for a complete overhaul of the whole business rates regime, which you described as a 400-year-old tax. And, of course, it’s an attractive proposal to get rid of a regressive tax. The real question, of course, which you did move on to talk about, is what do you replace it with, and you suggested a land tax as one possibility. And, of course, unless you don’t mind losing the income if you get rid of that tax—which, of course, the Welsh Government couldn’t afford to do, so we would need replacements, and the Cabinet Secretary mentioned this as well.So, we’ve heard some options provided for an alternative, and I think we all agree this is definitely worth exploring; we agree with that aspect of your motion. We shouldn’t shut the door on the wholesale reform of business rates within Wales and, as you’ve said, because of withdrawal from the European Union, one of the corollaries of that, actually, is we can now look at the way that taxation works in Wales and we can look at doing something here that might not have been possible a few years ago. However, this does need much more work, and what we are talking about now is providing immediate assistance to those businesses affected, not next year, not in two years’ time, but now.We talk a lot in this Chamber, but I don’t think there’s ever been a case where action was more required than now—and immediate action. As Janet Finch-Saunders said—well, Janet Finch-Saunders provided a showcase of Welsh Conservative policy since the election, and before. You made a very, very strong case, Janet—I know you’ve had direct experience of this in Llandudno in your constituency—a very strong case for providing far more and very real support for small businesses and retail premises across Wales. Your message was very simple, at the end of the day, and, of course, this is actually a quite straightforward problem that needs a straightforward solution, and that is greater support.I would point out to you, Jeremy Miles—I agreed with some of the things you said, actually, but I would point out that, in today’s autumn statement, which you did question as to whether there was much support for businesses, the Chancellor has announced that rural rate relief in England will be increased significantly. So, they are looking in England at providing far more support for businesses in rural areas across the border, so I think anything less here in Wales would not be good enough. And, as Russell George said in opening this debate, why do we put up with second best? Why don’t we make sure that the system that we’re going to have here in Wales is actually world class—UK class at least? This doesn’t just need to be an adequate solution to this problem; let’s do something here that really can set the support for businesses in Wales on a footing with businesses across the UK and put them ahead of the game. We’ve been talking about that for a very long time, but, as I said, the time now is for action.In conclusion, Deputy Presiding Officer, let’s be ambitious for Wales. Let’s use this problem, this short-term, medium-term problem, to move forward and provide a system that is up to dealing with the challenges of today and the challenges of tomorrow. Let’s incentivise local economies, let’s make sure that our businesses are best able to deal with the challenges that they are facing. But if we can’t get over this hurdle that we are facing over the next few months, then we are going to find it very difficult to get over the hurdles that the next few years will present us with.

Thank you very much. The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Thank you. Therefore, we defer the voting under this item until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

8. 8. Plaid Cymru Debate: Public Sector Pay

The following amendments have been selected: amendments 1 and 4 in the name of Jane Hutt, and amendments 2, 3, 5 and 6 in the name of Paul Davies. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected. If amendment 3 is agreed, amendment 4 will be deselected.

Symudwn ymlaen yn awr at ddadl Plaid Cymru ar gyflogau’r sector cyhoeddus, a galwaf ar Neil McEvoy i gynnig y cynnig.

Motion NDM6171 Rhun ap IorwerthTo propose that the National Assembly for Wales:1. Regrets the gap between the highest and the lowest paid workers in Welsh local authorities and the wider public sector.2. Notes Plaid Cymru’s success in forcing the Welsh Government to amend the Local Democracy Act during the fourth Assembly to include measures that have improved transparency in how senior officers pay is decided through the establishment of independent remuneration panels.3. Calls on the Welsh Government to:(a) legislate to introduce nationally set pay scales and terms and conditions to control senior and chief officer pay through a national framework which would ensure fair pay for all public sector workers in Wales; and(b) define the role of local authorities chief executives in legislation which would include abolishing additional payments to council officials for returning officer duties.

Motion moved.

Neil McEvoy AC: Diolch, Ddirprwy Lywydd. I move the motion and ask for support for the motion tabled in Rhun ap Iorwerth’s name. At a time of austerity, when public services are being slashed to the bone, youth and play centres are being closed, leisure centres are being privatised in Cardiff, it’s not surprising that the public is outraged by the wages being earned by a new Labour elite in the public sector—many people being paid in excess of £100,000 a year. Plaid Cymru is using this debate today to try to tackle runaway senior management salaries and deliver fair pay in the public sector.Local authorities should be the benchmark of fair and consistent pay, but the inconsistency within local government over pay ratios remains alarming and unjust. [Interruption.] Not for the moment. Plaid Cymru is already leading by example. The median average salary for chief executives running Plaid Cymru councils is nearly £20,000 less than those running Labour councils, and that figure includes the highest chief executive salary in Wales, which was set by a Labour council before Plaid took office.

Suzy Davies took the Chair.

Neil McEvoy AC: We’ve also taken steps to provide better scrutiny of senior pay by ensuring that the Local Government (Democracy) (Wales) Act 2013 during the fourth Assembly improved transparency in how senior officers’ pay is decided through the establishment of independent remuneration panels. Rhodri Glyn Thomas AM ensured that all senior pay awards have to be scrutinised and voted on in councils, and that an independent remuneration panel had to make recommendations. This step removed the allegation and the perceived problem of things being done behind closed doors. Our motion today calls for the introduction of a nationally decided set of pay scales and terms and conditions through a national framework. We’re also calling on the Welsh Government to define the role of local authorities’ chief executives in legislation, which would include abolishing additional payments to council officials for returning officer duties. Around £150,000 was paid to returning officers for their services during the 2012 Welsh Government elections, and why pay that? The issue of senior management pay is of significant interest to the public, and the fact is that, really, telephone-number salaries in the public sector cannot be justified. The chief executive of Swansea council, appointed by Labour, earns just £2,000 less than the UK Prime Minister. The Labour-appointed chief of Carmarthenshire council earns just—. He earns, actually, £15,000 more than Theresa May, and I find that astonishing—more than the Prime Minister of the UK. It’s not just the chief executives of councils, though—the salaries of senior management officers add up to millions, and, when Plaid Cymru ran Cardiff council, we got rid of a whole host of salaries over £100,000 a year, and we were actually praised by the TaxPayers’ Alliance, which takes some doing. When Labour got back in, they reintroduced fat-cat salaries of over £100,000 a year. [Interruption.] No. More than half the chief executives of Wales’s health boards earn at least £200,000 a year. On the Public Accounts Committee, we’re investigating housing associations, and rightly so, because the tenants are among the most vulnerable people and sometimes the poorest in Wales, yet the chief executives of these organisations earn six figures. Wales & West Housing, for example: the chief executive is paid £130,000 a year. When Nick Bennett was the chief executive of the umbrella group for housing associations, Community Housing Cymru, he increased the wage bill by 15 per cent in just one year, but the basic pay of staff only went up 2 per cent. Now he’s the Public Services Ombudsman for Wales, earning more than the Prime Minister—grade 5 of the judicial salaries’ pay scale, another example of a six-figure merry-go-round salary, over £140,000 a year. I’ll repeat that—over £140,000 a year. Let’s mention Dŵr Cymru’s chief executive, Chris Jones. His pay last year, including two bonuses and a pension, was £768,000—three quarters of a million pounds. Now, excuse the irony, but a not-for-profit company, as they keep reminding us. Now, are these people worth it? I would argue that they’re not, but that’s not part of the motion today. But I think it would be fantastic—.

Adam Price AC: On a point of order, Chair. I’m new to this place, so I don’t know what the rules are, but is it in order for a Minister of the Welsh Government to heckle from a sedentary position a backbench Member who is trying to be heard? Could you rule on that?

Suzy Davies AC: We always try and ensure that anyone who wishes to make an intervention does it from a standing position, but we do invite lively debate here as well. I just hope that nobody here oversteps the mark in future.

Neil McEvoy AC: I’ll willingly give way to the Minister, who once upon a time had three jobs—

Hefin David AC: You won’t give way to me; I’ve given my council salary back.

Neil McEvoy AC: [Continues.]—whilst being an Assembly Member. Would you like to speak, Minister? You’ve got enough to say shouting. No? Okay, fine.

Suzy Davies AC: Carry on, please.

Neil McEvoy AC: It really would be fantastic to see the wages of top—[Interruption.]

Suzy Davies AC: Can we please have no more interventions from a seated position? Thank you.

Neil McEvoy AC: I think, colleagues, the way that Government Ministers behave sometimes is shameful—[Interruption.]

Suzy Davies AC: Not from a sitting position.

Neil McEvoy AC: [Continues.]—and demeaning to this institution. [Interruption.]

Suzy Davies AC: Could the Member please continue with his contribution? Thank you.

Neil McEvoy AC: I’ll make progress, because I think it would be fantastic that the top earners and lowest earners in the public sector—if their salaries were linked. In that way, Nick Bennett and others who give themselves pay rises would see the lowest-paid people in the organisation increase their pay also. If there was a pay cut at the bottom, there would also be a pay cut at the top.Now, I would urge this Assembly and the Government to support Plaid Cymru’s motion and consider, in future, introducing a fair pay Act. Diolch yn fawr. Thank you.

Suzy Davies AC: I have selected the six amendments to the motion. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected. If amendment 3 is agreed, amendment 4 will be deselected. I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Local Government to formally move amendments 1 and 2 tabled in the name of Jane Hutt.

Amendment 1—Jane HuttDelete point 2 and replace with:Notes the requirement of the Local Democracy Act, which includes measures that have improved transparency in how senior officers’ pay is decided through the broadening of the powers of the Independent Remuneration Panel for Wales.

Amendment 4—Jane HuttIn point 3, delete sub-point (a) and replace with:work with social partners to develop a national framework which would ensure fair pay for devolved public sector workers in Wales; and

Amendments 1 and 4 moved.

Mark Drakeford AC: Formally, Chair.

Suzy Davies AC: Thank you. I call on Janet Finch-Saunders to move amendments 2, 3, 5 and 6 tabled in the name of Paul Davies.

Amendment 2—Paul DaviesDelete point 2, and replace with:Recognises Welsh Conservative proposals, which called on the Welsh Government to place a binding limit on senior office holder salaries to ensure that local authorities enforce effective caps on pay.

Amendment 3—Paul DaviesDelete Point 3 and replace with:Calls on the Welsh Government to consider legislation introduced in other Commonwealth jurisdictions, which has enshrined the responsibilities of local government chief executives in law, such as Section 94 A of the Australian Local Government Act 1989.

Amendment 5—Paul DaviesAdd as a new point at the end of the motion:Notes the evidence heard by the Public Accounts Committee, which saw stakeholders call for a correlation between senior management pay and organisational performance, as a key indicator in providing value for money.

Amendment 6—Paul DaviesAdd as new point at end of motion:Further notes the Society of Local Authority Chief Executives and Senior Managers’ submission to the UK Government’s Communities and Local Government Select Committee Inquiry into Local Government Chief Officer Remuneration in January 2014, which acknowledged that since 2010, a number of local authorities have started to share chief executives and senior management teams, to further drive cost saving measures.

Amendments 2, 3, 5 and 6 moved.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Thank you, deputy—. [Assembly Members: ‘Chair.’] Chair. [Laughter.] I would like to move the amendments tabled in the name of Paul Davies AM. Those amendments state quite clearly,‘Delete point 2, and replace with:‘Recognises Welsh Conservative proposals, which called on the Welsh Government to place a binding limit on senior office holder salaries to ensure that local authorities enforce effective caps on pay.’Amendment 3:‘Delete Point 3 and replace with:‘Calls on the Welsh Government to consider legislation introduced in other Commonwealth jurisdictions, which has enshrined the responsibilities of local government chief executives in law, such as Section 94 A of the Australian Local Government Act 1989.’Now, we welcome this debate from Plaid Cymru, but with some bemusement, really, because many will remember the local democracy (Wales) Act in 2003, to which amendment 2 refers. At Stage 2, it was the Welsh Conservatives who, with the first group of amendments, were calling for the consent of Welsh Ministers to be given prior to a local authority paying a salary to any officer higher than the recommendation of Independent Remuneration Panel for Wales. This was opposed quite clearly by Plaid Cymru, as well as Labour and the Liberal Democrats. Then, at Stage 3, we tabled an amendment calling for the panel to recommend a maximum amount to be paid to any senior officer by a local authority. Again, this was opposed by Plaid Cymru, Labour and the Liberal Democrats, so it’s interesting—

Mike Hedges AC: Will you take an intervention?

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Yes, okay.

Mike Hedges AC: Well, there used to be the joint negotiating committee, which set the limit. The Conservative Government in Westminster did away with it. Do you regret that?

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Yes, but I’m here in the Senedd, and I’m on about what the Welsh Labour Government and Plaid Cymru—how you have failed in this.In 2015, the chief executive of Gwynedd county council was paid £306,000, and my colleague Neil McEvoy there raised the differential between local chief executives and the Prime Minister. Yet £306,000 was paid here and, to the director of environment at Blaenau Gwent—eye-watering or what—£295,000. Yes, definitely, you were right to compare that with the salary of our hard-working UK Prime Minister. There is no correlation whatsoever. You were very right earlier to make the point about how, in addition to this, some chief executives, including my own in Conwy, actually receive a salary of over £20,000 for being the electoral returning officer. That actually needs to be addressed, I believe, by the Minister.Performance management and the chief executive appraisal procedures must be better implemented and monitored appropriately. Evidence taken by the Public Accounts Committee, ahead of their report into senior management pay last term, demonstrated cross-stakeholder calls—many of them—for this, alongside the acknowledgement that local authorities need to do much better in terms of performance management. How often have we seen what I call the revolving-door process where a head of service will actually leave an organisation with a really fine redundancy amount and then actually enter the same local authority again under another guise in another role? It’s quite wrong.In 2014-15, Welsh councils spent over £100 million on redundancy pay-outs for staff. That was up 46 per cent on the previous year. The Westminster Committee on Standards in Public Life recently recommended that policies and procedures should be in place to manage revolving-door situations where individuals come from or go to the regulated sector, and that these should apply to all individuals at any level of any organisation. Regulators should be transparent about post-employment destinations and restrictions on departing board members and senior executives in the public sector. The reason I’m smiling is that we see so much Labour cronyism in Wales with many of the jobs that go to many within our public bodies, and it’s wrong.In light of moving towards local government reform, and with the potential for voluntary mergers on the table once more, it is pertinent to note that the society of local chief execs and senior managers have highlighted local authorities in England that have started to share chief executives. Cabinet Secretary, now, with local reform on the table, where there seems to be an intention for you to retain all 22 local authorities, is it going to be 22 chief executives and 22 heads of service on extortionate eye-watering salaries? If you could address those, I think many people outside the Senedd will actually be very grateful. Thank you.

Dawn Bowden AC: Can I say I was very much looking forward to speaking in this debate? As a long-standing trade union official who was dealing with these issues over many years in the public sector, I very much welcomed the debate coming forward. So, I do think it’s a shame that the Member had to stoop to the kinds of comments that he was making—the cheap kind of political jibes. Because we all know that this is not just a problem for Labour councils, this is a problem across the board, including Plaid-controlled Gwynedd and Ceredigion and other areas, which all have chief executives earning in excess of £100,000. The Member himself has two jobs where he pulls in in excess of £100,000 a year. [Interruption.] So, I really don’t think that was helpful. [Interruption.] I really don’t think that was helpful, Chair, because I can’t imagine anyone would disagree that the pay gap between—[Interruption.]

Dawn Bowden AC: No, I’m not taking an intervention. I can’t imagine that anyone would disagree—

Neil McEvoy rose—

Suzy Davies AC: Sit down. Sit down, please.

Dawn Bowden AC: [Continues.]—that the gap between the highest-paid officers and the lowest-paid workers in local authorities and in other public services in Wales is regrettable, and that is the issue that we should be addressing here today. Unfortunately, the motion only focuses on one aspect of that pay differential, and that is the relationship to the pay of senior and chief officers.There’s certainly a key issue in looking at any comparison, but surely of equal relevance here is tackling the issue of low pay amongst some of those workers, more often than not largely part-time women employees—

Neil McEvoy AC: Chair, a statement has been made about me that was factually incorrect. I ask the Member to be called to order, please.

Suzy Davies AC: The Member will have the opportunity to address this when he sums up at the end of the debate.

Dawn Bowden AC: Thank you, Chair. I’m sure many of you will remember the issue that arose in Caerphilly council in December 2012, when it came to light that some chief officers had been party to drafting and taking to a council committee a report recommending pay rises of more than 20 per cent for the chief executive and other chief officers. If you were to talk to the hundreds of trade union members at Caerphilly who staged a lunch-time walk out, of course they were angry at the scale of the proposed awards. But what really outraged them was that this had come on the back of a three-year pay freeze for all other local authority staff. It was pleasing that the trade union campaign there did lead to an early settlement of that dispute. They were able to negotiate an agreement, which led to the removal of a substantial part of those pay awards, but this was only possible through the willingness of the Labour group in Caerphilly council to engage constructively with the trade unions, facilitated by the then chair of Caerphilly’s policy and resources scrutiny committee, who now sits in this Chamber as the Assembly Member for Caerphilly. That is the reality of what transpired, and not the distorted version that was given by Caerphilly Plaid in statements to the media today.

Hefin David AC: Can I make an intervention?

Dawn Bowden AC: Sure.

Hefin David AC: Thank you for taking the intervention. I notice that Neil McEvoy didn't want to, and I can give you a corrected statement. He is taking a £13,000 councillor’s salary, the same councillor’s salary that I've given back. So, he could start a saving today of £13,000 if he'd be willing to give it back. What I also had regarding your statement is that the deputy leader of Plaid in Caerphilly did know about the decision when it was made. He was in the meeting, yet he chose not to raise it publicly for three months, and only commented when it was reported in the press, which was when I found out. So, since then, Caerphilly Plaid have shamelessly capitalised on—

Suzy Davies AC: It's a bit long for an intervention, Mr David.

Hefin David AC: [continues.]—but haven't acknowledged their role in the whole process.

Dawn Bowden AC: Well, thank you, Hefin, for that intervention, and yes, it's absolutely my understanding that the deputy leader of Caerphilly Plaid was actually in attendance at that meeting of the council's then remuneration committee—that’s what I think it was called—and his refusal to still acknowledge it or even apologise for that is quite reprehensible, frankly.So, yes, let's have a look at the national framework that will provide a senior management pay regime that includes organisational performance as a key indicator. But simply controlling chief officer pay will not, in isolation, address the gap. We should be looking to all local authorities and other public sector employers in Wales to pay their staff at least the foundation living wage. The two amendments from Jane Hutt embrace the wider devolved public services and call for a process of jointly developing a national framework with social partners. One of those key social partners, the trade unions representing the majority of staff in other areas of devolved public services, would, I am sure, welcome any scrutiny that extends into other areas other than local government, such as higher and further education, for example, where we've witnessed significantly increased salary levels for vice-chancellors while at the same time we have seen huge increases in the number of staff on zero-hours contracts, as well as the increased use of agency workers.

Suzy Davies AC: Can you bring your contribution to an end now, please?

Dawn Bowden AC: The second part of the motion’s resolution talks about abolishing additional payments to officials for being returning officers, and I think it's certainly the case that this is an area that requires looking at, given the number of elections that we now have to deal with in the course of a parliamentary term. In that context, remuneration for returning officers does need reviewing, and it may be that, in developing a framework for determining that, we could find a legitimate area for consideration, and that would be an area that I would support. Thank you, Chair.

Hefin David AC: I wanted to reflect on some of the comments that have been made. I have to say, it's been made purely for populist gain. It's the politics, I think, of Trump. You know, when you actually look at what's really going on, what's actually happening is that there is a pay differential, and there’s a recognition that you need a pay differential, that pay differential exists, and we tend to stick to those things. Actually, the spirit of the motion I have no problem with whatsoever. It calls for transparency and fairness when it comes to the setting of public sector pay for senior officers, and it particularly looks at the gap between the highest paid and the lowest paid, and although Plaid Cymru are kind of looking to take credit for the local democracy (Wales) Act, a good idea doesn't belong to anybody; it belongs to everybody. And there's nothing wrong with that.I've touched on the senior pay issue in Caerphilly. It was, in fact, given some of Neil McEvoy's comments, Labour councillors who secured a scaled-back spot salary for the chief executive officer in Caerphilly. That salary remains frozen for the period of the administration and that senior pay issue won’t be revisited for that administration, and it's reflected in a published—

Leanne Wood AC: Will the Member take an intervention?

Hefin David AC: Of course, yes.

Leanne Wood AC: Do you accept that, when the legislation on pay was going through, a Plaid Cymru member, Rhodri Glyn Thomas, laid an amendment to put a cap on the senior salaries and pay? Do you accept that Labour voted down that amendment?

Hefin David AC: I would, of course, with the greatest respect to the leader of Plaid Cymru, accept whatever she says about what happened in the fourth Assembly, because I wasn't a Member at that time.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: It wasn't quite like that.

Hefin David AC: I’ve got an intervention from the Conservative side who’s saying that it wasn't quite like that. So, far be it from me to interfere in a dispute between the two of you.The lowest paid in Caerphilly council actually have the living wage, and it was the first local authority in Wales to introduce it, which further reduced the multiplier between the lowest paid and the highest paid. The Localism Act 2011, building on the work of the Hutton review of fair pay in the public sector, recommends the use of multiples as a means of measuring the relationship between pay rates in the workforce. What Will Hutton said—by no means a right-wing journalist—was that comparisons to the pay of the Prime Minister are unhelpful because they don’t give you an indication as to the kind of multiples you should be using. Hutton recommended that no public sector managers should earn more than 20 times as much as the lowest-paid person in the organisation. In the private sector it’s 88:1. I think 20:1 is too high, if you ask me, and it’s significant that very few, if any, local authorities in Wales actually have a 20:1 multiplier. In Caerphilly the multiple between the highest and lowest paid is 9.4:1, putting it towards the lower end of the scale for relative differentials in the UK public sector workforce pay.Now, you could go to a system where we say, unilaterally in Wales—as Neil McEvoy’s advocated previously in this Chamber—we go below £100,000 for all chief executives in Wales. Now, the danger is that you’re fishing in the same pool for talent as chief executives elsewhere. There is a danger that you immediately, acting unilaterally, start to lose that talent. We must have a serious, grown-up conversation about that risk and not engage in the populist right-wing politics that is taking hold in this world today, and which the Member has engaged in.Those reforms introduced by the Welsh Government in the local democracy Act have ensured there will be greater transparency in assessing public sector pay, and this balances public interest and will do so in the future. It is a serious examination of the issue, not something that you can put straight on to Twitter. The recommendations of the Hutton review—we’ll need to attract the best staff in the Welsh public sector.So, on that note, I urge, actually—let’s put this nonsense behind us. Neil McEvoy, give back your £13,000. I’ve done it. I support the amendments to the motion tabled in the name of Jane Hutt.

Gareth Bennett AC: Low pay is a serious problem for public sector workers at the bottom end of the scale in Wales. Local councils no longer have direct labour organisations, agency workers are often used, and this tends to have a depressing effect on wages. So, we do have to have a look at this, and one way in which low pay might be partially addressed is by trying to put a brake on excessively high pay. So, if any party has any reasonable suggestions to curb fat cat pay rises in the public sector, then we in UKIP are more than happy to look at them.

Leanne Wood AC: In the last Assembly, Rhodri Glyn did.

Gareth Bennett AC: Okay, well done, Rhodri Glyn. But it may not be enough, Leanne.Independent remuneration boards always sound like a good idea, but somebody has to appoint the independent board members in the first place. Sometimes these tend to be one set of public officials recommending a hefty pay rise for another set of public officials. So, the appointment of these board members needs to be carefully monitored.Pay ceilings would be another tool that could be usefully employed. We also support the idea of clearly defined roles for council chief executives. If they are to be on their high pay scales, then there should be clear instructions as to their duties. It is difficult to argue that council CEOs should receive extra lolly for being election returning officers, which one would think would be part of their statutory duties.But if we are going to get a grip on public sector pay here in Wales then we need to get our own house in order first. The pay rise AMs received this year, recommended by an independent remuneration board, provoked considerable controversy. I would propose that, in future, all AM pay rises are simply tied to inflation. [Interruption.] They are? [Interruption.] They are now? Well, it didn’t seem—that was not how it was reported at the time. [Interruption.] They are? [Interruption.] Okay, we’re making good progress. I see you did actually do something about pay in the last Assembly, so—.I don’t think that we can use extra responsibilities as an excuse in future to hike AM pay above inflation levels. So, I hope that that argument won’t occur.Now, we have had a look at other aspects of public sector pay. Neil mentioned housing association bosses. Dawn mentioned the problem of people in academia. Now, Colin Riordan, the head man at Cardiff University, is on £269,000 a year. Is he worth even half of that? And what are we going to do about his pay? Thank you.

Suzy Davies AC: I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Local Government, Mark Drakeford.

Mark Drakeford AC: Diolch yn fawr, Gadeirydd. The note that I’d written for myself as a guide to responding to this debate said that I was looking forward to a debate on a serious topic on which there was much that we can agree on. I really do regret the fact that we have failed to have that sort of serious debate this afternoon.

Darren Millar AC: Will you take an intervention?

Mark Drakeford AC: Yes, I will.

Darren Millar AC: Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. I share your concern about the tone of this debate, Cabinet Secretary. I chaired a Public Accounts Committee inquiry on this very subject, with some very sensible recommendations that could be taken forward on a cross-party basis to address what is a very real issue of concern to members of the public. I think that it is important that we move forward together on this, united as an Assembly, to address the real problem that is excessive pay in the public sector.

Mark Drakeford AC: Can I thank Darren Millar for that? I hope my contribution will follow on from the tone that he has just established, because this is a serious matter and it deserved a serious debate. Unfortunately, it got off to a divisive and destructive start from which it’s been very difficult to recover.Can I say as well, Chair, that I absolutely deprecate it—and I put it on the record here—I absolutely deprecate it when Members of this Assembly attack, by name, individuals—whether they are in the private sector, whether they hold public appointment, whether they are in the public sector—who cannot be here to answer back for themselves to that personal attack that is made on them? That is not the way that we have conducted our debates in this Assembly and I absolutely deprecate it when people indulge in that sort of behaviour.Let me turn to the substance of the motion. There is an issue about senior pay, of course there is. That is why, in Wales, we have a requirement on local authorities to set out their authority’s remuneration policy and to set out the ratio between the highest-paid employee and the median-average earnings within that local authority. In local government, the pay policy statements show that the ratio varies between local authorities, between 4:1 and 9:1. It may well be that Members here will think that that ratio is too wide and that it doesn’t reflect, for example, the Welsh Government’s own ratio, where the ratio between the highest paid and the median salary is 5.54:1.It’s more than a problem of high pay. As Dawn Bowden said, it’s a problem of low pay as well. How do we tackle people who don’t earn enough and make sure that our pay policies reward them properly, too? The NHS in Wales is a living-wage employer. In local government, the picture is less uniform. There has been some progress in authorities of all different political persuasions. I think there is more to be done and I certainly think that every local authority in Wales ought to own that aspiration and show how they are to take steps to achieve it.On point 2 of the motion, as far as the transparency argument goes, there is a shared perspective amongst many people here in the Chamber and a history in which most of our parties here have played a part. There was the Localism Act 2011, which we’ve heard referred to this afternoon. There was the Public Accounts Committee’s important report when it considered this matter in 2014. The Welsh Government accepted the recommendations of that report and developed and issued a pay transparency framework, which local authorities and other devolved public sector bodies in Wales must follow.Through the Local Government (Democracy) (Wales) Act 2013, the independent remuneration panel was established. Until then a body confined to dealing with members of local authorities, the 2013 Act required it to take on the task of considering changes to chief executives’ pay and to make recommendations to councils on those changes. Then, only last year, in the Local Government (Wales) Act 2015, we agreed here to widen that role to address changes to pay of all chief officers in local government. It’s been an agenda, Chair, on which parties across this Chamber have worked together. And when we work together on an important issue, we show that we are able to make some progress, and the position on transparency is very different today than it was even four years ago.

The Deputy Presiding Officer took the Chair.

Mark Drakeford AC: There is a final part of the motion, Ddirprwy Lywydd, 3(b) on returning officers’ fees, and I’m very happy that we’re able to accept that, because that is already Government policy, and I aim to use a forthcoming local government Bill, if we are able to have one, to take further the points made in that part of the motion.Finally, as far as 3(a) is concerned, I understand the thinking behind that part of the motion—I simply think that it is premature in its detail and in its prescription. Trade union colleagues presented a paper on this issue at the workforce partnership council only last week. We agreed there a timetable for taking that discussion further. The Government amendment reflects our intention to deal with the matter in social partnership. That way, we’ll make some progress, and that way, we might be able to rescue something from this motion and from the debate that we’ve had here this afternoon.

Thank you very much, Cabinet Secretary. I call on Neil McEvoy to reply to the debate. Neil.

Neil McEvoy AC: Diolch, Ddirprwy Lywydd. First of all, in Caerphilly, the Plaid councillor did not support the pay deal, Labour councillors did. Insofar as my own situation, I’m looking forward to working with my community and investing the councillor allowance after the elections, if re-elected, in my community. I can’t wait. [Interruption.]I think there’s a huge—. I think what we have here is a lack of recognition of reality, and the huge public concern. I’ll give you some examples. Health board chairs: Cardiff and Vale, the chair of the board, Labour Party member; Aneurin Bevan, chair of the board, Labour Party member; Abertawe Bro Morgannwg, chair of the board, Labour Party member. Let’s move on to the commissioners. The well-being of future generations, Labour Party member; the children’s commissioner, Labour Party member; the ombudsman, was in business with a Labour Minister. [Interruption.] This is the truth, and you don’t like hearing it. What we have here—[Interruption.] What we have here is huge public concern. [Interruption.] There’s not a single thing there that is not a fact. You don’t like it; you’re the Government, you should address it. [Interruption.] In terms of—[Interruption.] In terms of the number of jobs—[Interruption.]

Can I listen to what the Member is saying in replying to the debate, please? Can we listen quietly, because it’s very difficult when you’re all shouting? Neil.

Neil McEvoy AC: What we have here are many facets of a one-party state, which has been run by the Labour Party since 1999. And do you know what, the news is: your time is running out. Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you very much.

Neil McEvoy AC: A point of order.

No, no. Hang on—

Neil McEvoy AC: A point of order.

No, let me just do this bit first, and then I’ll come back to your point of order. So, the proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] You object, okay. Therefore, we will defer the voting under this item until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

Point of order, Neil McEvoy.

Neil McEvoy AC: Thank you. What was said by the Member for Merthyr was factually incorrect, and I ask her to withdraw it.

Thank you very much.

Dawn Bowden AC: Do you want me to respond, Deputy Presiding Officer?

I would ask you to reflect on what was said and I would ask you: do you want to respond?

Dawn Bowden AC: I’m happy to accept that I may have got the figures wrong, Chair, and if I did, I apologise, but I do not apologise for my comment about the Member taking two salaries.

Neil McEvoy AC: Like the Ministers, yes?

Okay, thank you. [Interruption.] Thank you. Well, it is the nature of parliamentary debate that facts and arguments are always contested, and so that should happen. [Interruption.] Hang on a minute. Members are responsible for the accuracy of the statements the make, and as long as they are not out of order—and I don’t think it was out of order, apart from the factual inaccuracy that has been raised by the Member—it’s not for me, the Presiding Officer, or anyone sitting in this chair, to judge the facts presented. And I’m happy to take the fact that you have withdrawn, the fact that the figures may be inaccurate, and therefore that is the end of that discussion. Okay. Thank you very much.

9. 9. Plaid Cymru Debate: Cancer Diagnosis Targets

The following amendments have been selected: amendment 1 in the name of Jane Hutt, and amendment 2 in the name of Paul Davies. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected.

We move on to the Plaid Cymru debate on cancer diagnostic targets, and I will call on Rhun ap Iorwerth to move the motion.

Motion NDM6172 Rhun ap IorwerthTo propose that the National Assembly for Wales:1. Notes that the independent cancer task force has called for a target of diagnosis within 28 days.2. Calls on the Welsh Government to ensure that the extra investment in diagnostic equipment secured by Plaid Cymru in the budget negotiations helps achieve this target.

Motion moved.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer. I’m pleased to open this debate, which calls for a focus on achieving a target of 28 days for diagnosis for those with cancer. This is a recommendation that was made by the independent cancer taskforce, which includes some of Europe’s finest clinicians, who said:Rydym yn argymell y dylid gosod uchelgais y bydd, erbyn 2020, 95% o gleifion a atgyfeiriwyd gan feddyg teulu i gael profion yn cael diagnosis naill ai bod ganddynt ganser, neu nad oes ganddynt ganser, a bod y canlyniad wedi ei gyfleu i’r claf o fewn pedair wythnos.The report also suggests that 50 per cent should receive their results within a fortnight.Some of the more pedantic amongst us have drawn attention to the fact that the independent taskforce looks specifically at England. The suggestion, I suppose, is that we should never look at what happens elsewhere, or even that cancer changes its form when it crosses a border, but, of course, the recommendation has also been approved by Cancer Research as something that would be of specific value to Wales too. The health needs of people are the same and the need for early diagnosis is just as important.Waiting times for diagnosis are longer here than they are over the border. Any reasonable analysis of data, I think, would demonstrate that. And because of new NICE guidelines, which do apply here in Wales, it will be easier for GPs to refer people for testing. So, an increase in capacity, I think, is going to be necessary.We have seen improvements in diagnostic waiting times for radiology in Wales over the past few years, and clearly we want to see that continuing. But the figures are no better than they were back in October 2009, for example, so we are still trying to recover from that period between 2011 and 2014 when waiting times went through the roof.It’s even worse when it comes to endoscopy diagnosis, which is crucial, of course, with colon cancer. Here, the median waiting time has gone from a little over three weeks in 2009 to a little under six weeks for most of this year. We haven’t seen any real improvement since 2014, and remember that is the median figure, which will mean that half the people are waiting even longer than that. So, you can see the challenges facing us in achieving a target of 28 days for diagnosis for 95 per cent of patients.The Minister, I think, has claimed in the past that the target, to a certain extent, is being achieved, but that somehow it’s not being recorded. All I will say about that is that I’m sure it’s very frustrating for him that all of the targets that his Government does achieve aren’t recorded and published, when so many of the targets that are recorded show failures. Some people might assume from that that things aren’t perhaps going as well as the Minister would hope.But let’s concentrate on something else that the Minister has said entirely accurately on a number of occasions: we need to look at outcomes. I agree 100 per cent with that. So, let’s emphasise the importance of having earlier diagnoses and what that can mean in terms of outcomes. Recent figures demonstrate that 93.2 per cent of patients who received a diagnosis at the earliest stage of colon cancer survived for five years, as compared with only 6.6 per cent where the disease had developed further. For liver cancer, between 50 per cent and 70 per cent of stage A patients will survive for five years with treatment, as compared with a median survival rate of between six and 11 months for those in stage C. More than 90 per cent of women diagnosed with breast cancer at the earliest stages do survive for at least five years, as compared with 15 per cent of women who are diagnosed at the most advanced stage of the disease. More than 90 per cent of women who are diagnosed with ovarian cancer at the earliest stage do survive for at least five years, as compared with 5 per cent of women diagnosed at the most advanced stage. The figures are very striking indeed. We know, of course, what they are, but it’s worth while looking at those bare figures just to remind ourselves of the importance of diagnosis and early diagnosis.There’s often mention of comparing Wales with England. It’s fair in some contexts, not fair in other contexts, but, of course, we in Wales and England, together, should be looking at what is happening where performance is at its best. A few examples for you: the survival rates for breast cancer for five years, 79.1 per cent in England; 78 per cent in Wales—similar figures; in Sweden, the figure is 86 per cent, and that’s what our target should be. In England, 80 per cent of men with prostate cancer survive five years or more; the figure is 90 per cent in Austria; 78 per cent in Wales. Colon cancer, the survival rates for five years in England are 51.3 per cent; a little below 50 per cent in Wales; but in Germany, they achieve over 60 per cent—62.2 per cent—with the European average at 57 per cent. So, once again, we should be aiming to match the best, because all of these people in these other nations who do receive early diagnosis are people who benefit in the long term from that diagnosis, and the survival rates demonstrate that to us.There are a number of reasons for late diagnosis: the unwillingness of patients, very often, to visit their GP with that persistent cough or a lump that doesn’t go away. Perhaps the patient has listened to Government advice not to visit a GP unless that’s entirely necessary. There are a number of reasons, of course, why people don’t go to their GPs. But longer waiting times are also a factor and sometimes complex symptoms need complex testing of the kind that we have seen being innovated in multidisciplinary centres in Denmark, and that is something that I’ve referred to on a number of occasions in the past. Once again, Cancer Research supports multidisciplinary centres of this kind. Here’s one quote:Mae’n amlwg fod diagnosis cynnar yn hanfodol i wella cyfraddau goroesi mewn llawer o fathau o ganser. Mae hyn yn haws gyda rhai mathau o ganser, er enghraifft canser y fron a chanser y croen sydd â symptomau penodol. Mae heriau penodol yn bresennol mewn canserau pan fo’r symptomau’n annelwig.We must provide all opportunities through diagnostic centres and by using the funding allocated through the budget, following discussions with Plaid Cymru, to ensure that that crucial target is one of the main priorities as we target scarce resource, but the resources that are available in order to secure the future health of the people of Wales.

Thank you very much. I have selected the two amendments to the motion. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected. I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Health, Well-being and Sport to move formally amendment 1 tabled in the name of Jane Hutt.

Amendment 1—Jane HuttDelete all and replace with:Notes:a) the emphasis on earlier detection of cancer set out in the refreshed Cancer Delivery Plan for Wales (2016-2020);b) that more people than ever are being treated for cancer in Wales and survival rates are at an all-time high; andc) that the Welsh Government will ensure that the extra investment in diagnostic equipment set out in the draft budget is used to improve cancer waiting times and treatment outcomes.

Amendment 1 moved.

Vaughan Gething AC: Formally, Chair.

Thank you very much. I call on Angela Burns to move amendment 2 tabled in the name of Paul Davies.

Amendment 2—Paul DaviesDelete Point 2 and replace with:Calls on the Welsh Government to improve access to screening services across the whole of Wales by acknowledging the role a national mobile cancer treatment service plays in supporting those with cancer, alongside reducing referrals to secondary care by making greater use of diagnostic technology in GP surgeries.

Amendment 2 moved.

Angela Burns AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I would like to do just that. I’m very grateful to Plaid Cymru for bringing forward this motion, although I would say to Rhun ap Iorwerth that he shouldn’t be quite so sensitive about being ribbed for relying so heavily upon an English survey, when he normally eschews all things English. In fact, Plaid Cymru have taken me to task so many times for using English data when it comes to the NHS.I think that having a target for diagnosis within 28 days is a really laudable aim, and I think it’s also a very humane aim, because I cannot think of much that could be more frightening than a GP telling you that you need to go off and have tests because they suspect you have cancer. I know from constituents’ stories, they tell me that it consumes them—the wait. And the longer they have to wait, the more worried they and their families become. I think that being able to answer people’s fears and either tell them of a battle they have to fight or to let them off and allow them to go back to their normal lives is incredibly important. And anything and everything we can do to bring that diagnosis time down is really, really welcome.I’ve noted the Government’s amendments and I am pleased, Cabinet Secretary, to see that there is more emphasis on early detection, as set out in the cancer delivery plan. I couldn’t agree more with that, but I have to say that, overall, you are failing cancer patients throughout Wales. Independent research by Bristol University concludes that patients in England are seven times more likely to access modern cancer drugs than their counterparts in Wales; that, in Wales in total, there’s been a 6.1 per cent increase in those waiting for urgent cancer care. So, it’s very important to have the early detection, but your point (b) goes on to say that,‘more people than ever are being treated for cancer in Wales and survival rates are at an all-time high’.I welcome that. I think that’s absolutely excellent, but, again, we have to look at the fact that only 83.3 per cent of people who should have started their cancer treatment within 62 days are actually being able to do that, and none of Wales’s health boards are meeting this target on an individual basis. So there’s quite a big gap between the rhetoric of your amendments and the actual delivery out there on the street.We’ve put forward an amendment that talks about improving access to screening services across the whole of Wales. We would like to acknowledge the role that a national mobile cancer treatment service plays in supporting those with cancer. We believe that we are so far behind in the first part of this motion that we could really move forward by using mobile cancer diagnostic treatment centres much, much more. Twenty point eight per cent of people across Wales are waiting more than eight weeks. In England it’s only 1.5 per cent. We have got more new cases of cancer and incidence is continuing to rise in men and women. When you think that four out of every 10 cases of cancer are preventable, where good diagnostics could make such an enormous difference, then we really want to emphasise the point that a national mobile cancer treatment service could make the world of difference.We announced in the 2016 Assembly elections that we would establish just such a thing to prevent long round trips for patients accessing clinics and chemotherapy treatment. We also committed to reducing referrals to secondary care by making much greater use of diagnostic technology in GPs surgeries. It’s really interesting, because I went to a cluster group on Friday of last week, and they’ve actually got a critical reactor diagnostic test machine, and that is one of the keys that will actually tell you in your blood whether or not you might be having something going on that could lead to either a cancer or a sepsis. It’s a very rare thing for a GP’s clinic to actually bring that in and use that, but by being able to do that they’re playing their part in helping to move forward this early diagnostic.There are an awful lot of things that we can do in terms of helping GPs to do much more screening at their level, to then get those referrals going on through into the hospitals. Mobile clinics are absolutely essential, particularly in rural Wales, where it is so very difficult for people to get backwards and forwards. We’d like to look at ideas such as having chemists being able to do blood tests—again, blood tests that can pick up the cancer markers, which can go forward. All of these things just help to speed up the system, and that’s what we need to do to be able to move this forward. If we want to be able to try and make that 28-day target, which I think would be absolutely critical for the mental well-being of a potential cancer sufferer, then we need to look at the whole broad-brush spectrum, and I’d be very interested in your views on some of those ideas, Cabinet Secretary.

Rhianon Passmore AC: I’m pleased to be able to speak in this debate. Yesterday I was able to ask the First Minister about the progress that the Welsh Labour Government is making in improving survival rates for cancer, and as I told the First Minister last week, the Member for Cynon Valley, Vikki Howells, and I had the privilege to tour the laboratories of Cancer Research Wales, where we were able to witness the exciting and groundbreaking work that is taking place today to increase scientific understanding of how cancer attacks the immune system.Cancer Research Wales is a truly exciting example of the great work that is going on in Wales. They raise over £1 million a year in fundraising and contribute to cancer research within the many Welsh hospitals and university departments across Wales. As stated, I greatly welcome the ambitious Welsh Labour Government’s revised cancer delivery plan that has just been launched. All of us can applaud the fact that patient satisfaction remains positive. Indeed, investment in spending on cancer services has risen from £347 million in 2011-12 to £409 million in 2014-15. As the First Minister told me yesterday when I asked what tools the Welsh Labour Government could give the gifted scientists and researchers at Cancer Research Wales, he stated,‘we are investing £4.5 million of funding over three years in the new Wales Cancer Research Centre, which was launched in October last year. In addition, roughly £4.7 million is invested annually in support of recruiting patients to trials or studies and supporting health board research activity.’Indeed, the revised cancer delivery fund makes commitments to improve survival rates for cancer, reduce early death caused by the disease, close the gap with the best providers of cancer care in Europe, and the plan additionally covers the period to 2020 to provide very important continuity for the health service.The Welsh Labour Government has set ambitious targets in this field for Wales. At least 95 per cent of patients diagnosed with cancer via the urgent suspected cancer route will start definitive treatment within 62 days of receipt of referral. Indeed, Wales has more stringent targets than England—95 per cent, compared to 85 per cent on this. At least 98 per cent of patients newly diagnosed with cancer, not via the urgent route, will start definitive treatment within 31 days of diagnosis, regardless of the referral route. These targets reflect advice from expert clinicians, patients and the third sector that patients should not wait more than 62 days from the point at which cancer is first suspected to the start of treatment.A 28-day diagnosis target, which the Tory Government has announced as the target to be met in England by 2020, would not in itself guarantee faster access to cancer treatment. The whole pathway is important for people referred with suspected cancer, not just the first 28 days. The Welsh Labour Government has said that it is opposed to any idea that would potentially lead to patients being misdiagnosed or not being diagnosed at all to meet a new target or any proposal that would lengthen the time patients wait to start treatment. It should be recognised that we have a different health service and system in Wales, which is based on collaboration and the integration of primary and secondary care. So let there be no doubt: for us to achieve our aims, we do have to invest, and also let there be no doubt that the Labour Party, which created the national health service, the greatest achievement of any peacetime United Kingdom Government, here in Wales continues to ensure that the national health service here is funded and fit for use in the twenty-first century.Investment from the Welsh Labour Government has meant that spending on cancer services continues to rise. Cancer now accounts for nearly 7 per cent of all NHS expenditure in Wales—the fourth biggest expenditure area. The Welsh Labour Government is investing £16.9 million in diagnostic equipment, such as MRI and CT scanners in 2016-17. There can be no better testament to the commitment that our party and our Government has than to ensure we continue to tackle the scourge of cancer than that of the new £200 million Velindre cancer centre, with £15 million allocated in the draft budget, in these times, for better diagnostics. The direction of progress and journey being made is good, and that is why I shall be voting against the motion as proposed and will be supporting the Government amendments. Thank you.

Caroline Jones AC: I would like to thank Plaid Cymru for tabling this debate today. The Welsh Government’s refreshed cancer delivery plan outlines the scale of the problem we face. Cancer care has vastly improved over the years and, as a result, more and more people are surviving cancer. However, we are failing badly when it comes to early diagnosis and have some of the worst five-year survival rates in the developed world. Eventually one in two of us will develop cancer at some point in our lives and, as Dr Crosby writes in the introduction to the cancer delivery plan,‘Diagnosing cancer early allows for a combination of less aggressive and less expensive treatment, improved patient experience and quality of life, and cruciallybetter survival.’We have to do better. We must learn from experiences elsewhere, and I’m pleased that the Welsh Government accepts that we are not performing well when it comes to early diagnosis and that they are prepared to look at how things are done across the world. The cancer implementation group’s visit to Denmark has led to an overhaul of GP cancer referrals and the piloting of diagnostic centres. Plaid’s motion refers to the work undertaken to develop the English cancer delivery plan, and UKIP would happily support Wales adopting the cancer targets set out in the report by the independent cancer taskforce.The NHS in England have made massive improvements in their five-year survival rates and we would do well to learn from these achievements.

David Rees AC: Will you take an intervention on that?

Caroline Jones AC: Yes, certainly.

David Rees AC: I thank the Member for taking an intervention. Do you share the concerns, then, I have that the report today from Cancer Research UK highlights the possible chaos that’s going to happen in diagnostics and pathology within the NHS, because they see the numbers increasing but the actual section decreasing?

Caroline Jones AC: Thank you, David. It’s going to be very difficult to keep up with the demand, as one in two of us is going to get cancer, but we can only try our best.We would also support the Welsh Conservatives’ suggestion of a mobile cancer treatment service, particularly for rural areas.There is no single solution to delivering improvements to cancer care in Wales but many small steps we can take. We have to improve awareness of the symptoms, access to a GP, improve availability of diagnostics in primary care, speed up the referral process and ensure access to the latest treatments. If we incrementally improve every link in the chain, then we can deliver the best cancer care in the world and ensure more people survive cancer for longer. The new cancer delivery plan is a good start; let’s ensure that delivery matches ambition. Thank you. Diolch yn fawr.

David Rees AC: ‘It’s cancer’—probably some of the most dreaded words that people hear when they visit their consultant or their GP after investigations have taken place. Upon hearing those words, patients face a challenging time. It’s important that we do as much as we can to reassure them and ensure that the care that they will have will have a structure, an agreed plan and will be of the highest quality. But we must also be reassuring ourselves that the care they receive to that particular point meets the same high standards.Today’s debate is about the importance of early care and undertaking those investigations as quickly as possible to be able to provide patients, either with the all-clear message, thus leaving the huge anxiety and the burden they’ve been carrying during that period or with a message that they have a condition that needs urgent treatment.Statistics suggest that many as one in three— perhaps now it is down to one in two—will develop cancer during their lifetime. Just looking around this room, that means 10 plus of us maybe getting that message in the years ahead. It’s an issue that affects families and communities across Wales and it’s very likely that many in this Chamber have personal experiences of family members or very good friends who have heard those words and travelled through that diagnostic process and who may be able to relay some of their experiences directly from what we know.I’ve also met constituents, as many of you have, who’ve raised concerns about the delays that they’ve experienced in the diagnostic process. It’s important to acknowledge that, despite the ongoing progress towards target achievement—and there is progress—people are still experiencing waits and I’ve got no intention of burying my head in the sand on this matter. But it’s also important to stress that I’m also contacted by constituents who tell me how much praise they’ve given to the NHS in Wales for the speedy treatment that they have received and the excellent care provided by the dedicated and committed NHS staff here in Wales.It is good news that the cancer survival rates in Wales continue to increase year on year, and I’m sure that the statistics will be repeated again. However, with regard to diagnostics, at the end of September 2016, just 11,000 people were waiting over eight weeks for specified diagnostic tests and endoscopies. Cabinet Secretary, I’m sure that you would agree that this is 11,000 too many. Although, I accept that not all of these were suspected cancer and that the figure is 36 per cent lower than in 2015.We all want an end to long waiting times in all areas of our NHS in Wales, including cancer care. This ambition has been reflected by the recently published revised cancer delivery plan. My colleague, the Member for Islwyn, has stressed the positives of that plan already this afternoon. It focuses on early detection of cancer through better access to diagnostics. I welcome the recent announcement of the investment of £6 million in the hub at the Royal Glamorgan Hospital in Llantrisant—they’re replacing a CT scanner, a new, second CT scanner and MRI scanners at that hospital—all expecting and helping to deliver more MRI scans, over 7,000, and more CT scans, over 6,500 per year. They will undoubtedly improve the diagnostic testing across south Wales.The Government’s commitment to improving cancer diagnosis targets, as well as treatment for those suffering from this horrendous disease, is clear: detecting cancer earlier is not only a matter of diagnostic tests following referral. We must also continue the national screening programmes and work hard to improve the screening uptake through improving public awareness of the importance of these screening programmes. That’s been one of the problems. The uptake sometimes has not been very good. In 2015-16, 77.8 per cent of women in the target age group attended cervical cancer screening at least once in the past five years. This figure has, however, been slowly decreasing over the past 10 years. We need to see it increase and not decrease. Breast screening saw a small increase of 0.3 per cent, and there is currently 72.4 per cent of those women within the target age group being screened.However, bowel screening is actually very poor. They’ve seen a decrease in people being screened, with only 50.8 per cent using bowel screening. We must improve these screening figures because they are a way in which we can identify at an early stage people who need care. And why are we helping people? Rhun ap Iorwerth highlighted other issues that perhaps cause some concerns, of delayed attendance at GP surgeries, and one of those, possibly, is men. We are terrible at going to a GP. We don’t make the effort. We think we’re big enough and don’t have a problem. We need more of us to actually identify the fact that we should attend a GP when we believe that something’s going wrong. And we often know it’s going wrong, but we just don’t want to admit it to ourselves. So, we must educate people better about taking the steps of self-awareness and screening processes, so we can actually do the early identification.Dirprwy Lywydd, progress is being made, but there’s much more to be done, and we must all work together to achieve greater success.

Thank you very much. I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Health, Well-being and Sport, Vaughan Gething.

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I’m happy to respond to today’s debate, and begin by acknowledging the comments already made, that earlier diagnosis of cancer will allow for that less aggressive and less expensive treatment, and, in particular, improved patient experience, but also quality of life that, crucially, should lead to better outcomes. But I don’t agree with the central implication of the motion, which is that a target time for diagnosis is the way to go about improving detection or necessarily outcomes. I accept that targets have a part to play in any healthcare system, but they can create perverse behaviours in different parts of the service, including in complex cancer care pathways. And on cancer waiting times to start treatment, we continue to do better than England, but our challenge is how we do better still rather than simply comparing ourselves with the English system. And I do acknowledge what’s been said about the English cancer taskforce recommendations that Plaid Cymru refer to in their motion. They don’t apply to Wales, and we do have a different health system. It isn’t being pedantic; it’s one that is delivered differently on the base of integrated primary and secondary care, health boards, on a planned rather than a commissioned model, on the basis of collaboration not fines, targets and tariffs.Now, earlier diagnosis is a major focus of the refreshed cancer delivery plan that was published and launched within the last two weeks. We know that the Cancer Network is working with primary care on implementing the NICE suspected cancer referral guidelines, and that, in itself, is a real challenge for the whole service. The network is looking to reform diagnostic pathways, learning from their visit to Denmark, about additional referral pathways for vague symptoms. We know that is a significant challenge as well. And, through the GP contract, clusters are analysing the learning from GP referral practice. And the framework for cancer programme is developing support for GPs to better diagnose, refer and support people who have a diagnosis as well.On screening, it’s been mentioned that more than 400,000 are routinely screened in Wales each year as part of our highly regarded breast, bowel and cervical screening programmes. We’ve already extensively modified the breast cancer screening, and we’ve recently agreed to implement better and more acceptable testing for cervical cancer and bowel cancer screening. And, in fact, that is one of the big barriers to improving the number of people who actually attend and undertake a bowel cancer test. Now, the NHS workforce strategy, and the imaging and pathology programme boards are addressing key workforce shortages in both pathology and radiology. The introduction of national informatics systems will better integrate care across sites and organisations with common pathology and imaging systems. So, there is no complacency on our part that we have everything perfect in our system. We continue to challenge, to reform and to progress different aspects of cancer care right across Wales. And I’m pleased that points have been made on diagnostic waits, and in particular the recognition by David Rees that we’ve improved our performance on diagnostic waits over the last year. I expect to see more improvement again through the end of this performance year, and I did recently announce a £6 million investment in the diagnostic hub in Cwm Taf. We’re already making use of some mobile diagnostic services as well. But, we will, in the future, invest again heavily in replacing and in providing new diagnostic equipment, including CT, MRI and PET imaging techniques, as well as a further £15 million earmarked for diagnostic equipment following the draft budget agreement with Plaid Cymru.We have a national endoscopy implementation group working to reduce waits and improve quality, and I’ve recently announced an extra £3 million in capital spending on decontamination equipment for these units. And I’m pleased at this point to recognise the points made by Rhianon Passmore about the investment we already make, and continue to make, on an increasing basis, for cancer services, and our backing of the new £200 million Velindre cancer centre. Now, I understand the sentiment and the drive behind the motion, and the recommendation it makes, but I simply don’t agree that an arbitrary 28-day target makes a meaningful contribution. I don’t think it’s the right way to take up the time, energy and effort of people within the service for them to make the best contribution to actually improving outcomes for cancer patients, because most patients on a 62-day pathway will have their definitive diagnosis already by that time, but some complex lung and oesophageal cancers can be hard to stage and diagnose within the 28 days. I don’t think it’s helpful to try and break up the pathway, rather than getting support in having a definitive diagnosis and definitive treatment actually starting. I think we need to give our clinical teams the time to interpret and use the diagnosis to agree and then begin that person-centred treatment plan within 62 days.I’m really happy to refer back to the fact that one-year and five-year survival rates are at all-time highs. They continue to improve, premature mortality continues to fall, and patient experience is exceptionally high. None of this means that we are complacent about where we are and where we want to be. And on diagnostics, as Tom Crosby, the medical director of the Wales cancer network said,‘We must lead a relentless drive towards earlier diagnosis.’There is no suggestion that we don’t think diagnosis is important. But in Wales, I believe we already have a sound approach and a plan in place to do just that, and this plan is welcomed by both clinicians and the third sector. If you like, the previous cancer delivery plan was written for the service and given to them to get on with and deliver, and it was welcomed at the time. But the new cancer delivery plan has been written with the service and with the third sector, and we’re working on the basis of evidence that we’ve gathered on what the right thing is to do to improve what we already do within Wales. The plan is widely supported, and it has a shared ambition to continually improve outcomes. And I look forward to working together with the service, the wider third sector and the public to do just that.

Thank you very much. I call on Rhun ap Iorwerth to reply to the debate very briefly.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Diolch, Ddirprwy Lywydd. We tabled this motion to give the Government an opportunity to align itself with clinical opinion, and to use the extra investment in diagnostic capacity to prioritise achieving this 28-day diagnostic target, which I haven’t plucked from the air; this has come from the people who know something about this. This could clear a bottleneck in the system and lead to faster treatment. I regret that the Government won’t take this opportunity. They seem to suggest that it’s the treatment time that’s more important. Well, of course, the treatment time and the timetable is important, but of course, the earlier the diagnosis, the earlier you can begin treatment and the earlier you can begin treatment, the better the hopes are for survival for the patient. So, we won’t be supporting, clearly, the Government amendment. We can’t support amendment 2 from the Conservatives either, because it takes out our call for the focus of diagnostic spend in this particular area. Yes, screening is very, very important. If my mother had been screened, she’d still be alive today. She died because she found her cancer too late. But it takes away that key part of our motion today. Support the motion. Twenty-eight days is what, we are told by experts, not just in Wales but further afield, we should be aiming for. I can’t for the life of me see why we wouldn’t want to set that as an ambition.

Thank you very much. The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Thank you. Therefore, we will defer voting under this item until voting time. It has been agreed that voting time will take place before the short debate, and unless three Members wish for the bell to be rung, I am going to proceed directly to voting time. Okay, thank you.

10. 10. Voting Time

Therefore, we will now move to vote on the individual Member debate on precision agriculture, and I call for a vote on the motion. Open the vote. Close the vote. There voted for 43, no abstentions, none against. Therefore, that motion is agreed.

Motion agreed: For 43, Against 0, Abstain 0.

Result of the vote on motion NDM6143.Click to see vote results

We now turn to vote on the Welsh Conservative debate on business rates, and I call for a vote on the motion tabled in the name of Paul Davies. If the proposal is not agreed, we will vote on the amendments tabled to the motion. Open the vote. Close the vote. For the motion 14, no abstentions, 31 against. Therefore, the motion is not agreed and we will move to vote on the amendments.

Motion not agreed: For 14, Against 31, Abstain 0.

Result of the vote on motion NDM6170.Click to see vote results

If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be de-selected. I call for a vote on amendment 1, tabled in the name of Jane Hutt. Open the vote. Close the vote. For the amendment 24, against the amendment 21. Therefore, the amendment is agreed and amendment 2 is deselected.

Amendment agreed: For 24, Against 21, Abstain 0.

Result of the vote on amendment 1 to motion NDM6170.Click to see vote results

Amendment 2 deselected.

I now call for a vote on the motion as amended.

Motion NDM6170 as amended:To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:1. Recognises that the retail industry employs 130,000 people in Wales, and makes a key contribution to the Welsh economy.2. Notes that the current shop vacancy rate in Wales stands at almost 14 per cent, and the projected rate of store closures is higher in Wales than anywhere else in the UK over the next two years.3. Reaffirms the independence of the Valuation Office Agency following the financial devolution of non-domestic rates to Wales.4. Notes the revaluation by the Valuation Office Agency is not designed to raise additional revenue and that while some rateable values have increased, overall they have fallen.5. Notes the Welsh Government’s:a) decision to extend the Small Business Rates Relief scheme for 2017-18, providing a tax cut for 70,000 small businesses in Wales;b) decision to make the Small Business Rates Relief scheme permanent from 2018 providing small businesses with certainty that this tax cut will continue;c) commitment to review the Small Business Rate Relief scheme to make it simpler and fairer for businesses in Wales; andd) decision to introduce a £10m transitional relief scheme in April 2017 to provide additional help for small businesses receiving SBRR who have been affected by revaluation.

Open the vote. Close the vote. For the amended motion 34, against the amended motion 11. Therefore, the amended motion is agreed.

Motion as amended agreed: For 34, Against 11, Abstain 0.

Result of the vote on motion NDM6170 as amended.Click to see vote results

We now move to the Plaid Cymru debate on public sector pay. I call for a vote on the motion tabled in the name of Rhun ap Iorwerth. If the proposal is not agreed, we will vote on the amendments tabled to the motion. Open the vote. Close the vote. For the motion, seven, there were four abstentions and 34 against. Therefore, the motion is not agreed.

Motion not agreed: For 7, Against 34, Abstain 4.

Result of the vote on motion NDM6171.Click to see vote results

We will now go to vote on the amendments. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected. I call for a vote on amendment 1, tabled in the name of Jane Hutt. Open the vote. Close the vote. For the motion 28, against the motion 17. Therefore, amendment 1 is agreed.

Amendment agreed: For 28, Against 17, Abstain 0.

Result of the vote on amendment 1 to motion NDM6171.Click to see vote results

Amendment 2 deselected.

We will now move to amendment 3. If amendment 3 is agreed, amendment 4 will be deselected. So, I call for a vote on amendment 3, tabled in the name of Paul Davies. Open the vote. Close the vote. For the motion 14, no abstentions, 31 against. Therefore, amendment 3 is not agreed.

Amendment not agreed: For 14, Against 31, Abstain 0.

Result of the vote on amendment 3 to motion NDM6171.Click to see vote results

We will now go to vote on amendment 4. I call for a vote on amendment 4 tabled in the name of Jane Hutt. Open the vote. Close the vote. For amendment 4, 24, four abstentions, 17 against. Therefore, amendment 4 is agreed.

Amendment agreed: For 24, Against 17, Abstain 4.

Result of the vote on amendment 4 to motion NDM6171.Click to see vote results

I call for a vote on amendment 5 tabled in the name of Paul Davies. Open the vote. Close the vote. For the amendment 45, no abstentions, no against. Amendment 5 is therefore agreed.

Amendment agreed: For 45, Against 0, Abstain 0.

Result of the vote on amendment 5 to motion NDM6171.Click to see vote results

I call for a vote on amendment 6, tabled in the name of Paul Davies. Open the vote. Close the vote. For the motion 38, no abstentions, seven against. Therefore, amendment 6 is agreed.

Amendment agreed: For 38, Against 7, Abstain 0.

Result of the vote on amendment 6 to motion NDM6171.Click to see vote results

I now call for a vote on the motion as amended.

Motion NDM6171 as amended:To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:1. Regrets the gap between the highest and the lowest paid workers in Welsh local authorities and the wider public sector.2. Notes the requirement of the Local Democracy Act, which includes measures that have improved transparency in how senior officers’ pay is decided through the broadening of the powers of the Independent Remuneration Panel for Wales.3. Calls on the Welsh Government to:(a) work with social partners to develop a national framework which would ensure fair pay for devolved public sector workers in Wales; and(b) define the role of local authorities chief executives in legislation which would include abolishing additional payments to council officials for returning officer duties.4. Notes the evidence heard by the Public Accounts Committee, which saw stakeholders call for a correlation between senior management pay and organisational performance, as a key indicator in providing value for money.5. Further notes the Society of Local Authority Chief Executives and Senior Managers’ submission to the UK Government’s Communities and Local Government Select Committee Inquiry into Local Government Chief Officer Remuneration in January 2014, which acknowledged that since 2010, a number of local authorities have started to share chief executives and senior management teams, to further drive cost saving measures.

Open the vote. Close the vote. For the amended motion, 38, no abstentions, seven against. Therefore, the amended motion is agreed.

Motion NDM6171 as amended agreed: For 38, Against 7, Abstain 0.

Result of the vote on motion NDM6171 as amended.Click to see vote results

We now move to a vote on the Plaid Cymru debate on cancer diagnostic targets. I call for a vote on the motion tabled in the name of Rhun ap Iorwerth. If the proposal is not agreed, we will vote on the amendments tabled to the motion. Open the vote. Close the vote. For the motion, 11, no abstentions, 34 against. Therefore, the motion is not agreed and we will proceed to vote on the amendments.

Motion not agreed: For 11, Against 34, Abstain 0.

Result of the vote on motion NDM6172.Click to see vote results

If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected. I call for a vote on amendment 1, tabled in the name of Jane Hutt. Open the vote. Close the vote. For the motion, 24, four abstentions, 17 against. Therefore, amendment 1 is carried.

Amendment agreed: For 24, Against 17, Abstain 4.

Result of the vote on amendment 1 to motion NDM6172.Click to see vote results

Amendment 2 deselected.

We now move to vote on the motion as amended.

Motion NDM6172 as amended:To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:Notes:a) the emphasis on earlier detection of cancer set out in the refreshed Cancer Delivery Plan for Wales (2016-2020);b) that more people than ever are being treated for cancer in Wales and survival rates are at an all-time high; andc) that the Welsh Government will ensure that the extra investment in diagnostic equipment set out in the draft budget is used to improve cancer waiting times and treatment outcomes.

Open the vote. Close the vote. For the motion 38, no abstentions, seven against. Therefore, the amended motion is agreed.

Motion NDM6172 as amended agreed: For 38, Against 7, Abstain 0.

Result of the vote on motion NDM6172 as amended.Click to see vote results

11. 11. Short Debate: Dyslexia—Life Through a Different Lens

We now move to the short debate, and I call on Angela Burns to move her short debate on the topic she has chosen—Angela Burns.

Angela Burns AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I'd like to give a minute of my time to Andrew R.T. Davies.‘Life through a different lens’ pretty much sums up the experiences of people with dyslexia. Their way of seeing the world is changed, because they have dyslexia, which is defined as‘a complex set of cognitive problems, which affects people in different ways and to different degrees.’I aim to use this debate today to provide more information about the condition and highlight some of the experiences of dyslexics, and I want to suggest ways of enhancing the effectiveness of the current provision.Dyslexia can affect all ages, but would normally show itself first in childhood. In years gone by, pupils would have been told that they were stupid, couldn’t read properly, were lazy, and definitely untidy with their handwriting. However, it is becoming more common for dyslexia to be diagnosed early, and it is this early detection that enables the intervention that is so critical to forging a successful educational flight path for a dyslexic child. Close to 10 per cent of the UK population has dyslexia; in real terms that’s more than 6.3 million people. Extrapolate this figure for Wales, and we could safely say that over half a million people are living with dyslexia here. Dyslexia can have a devastating effect on pupils’ education and their life chances. We already face challenges with one in 10 pupils leaving primary school not reaching the required levels in reading and one in six adults still only having the reading skills of an 11-year-old. What is also worrying is that pupils with special educational needs are around 10 times more likely to receive a permanent exclusion than pupils with no special education needs.

Joyce Watson took the Chair.

Angela Burns AC: Although dyslexia does not mean that pupils are illiterate, a number, especially those that the system has missed out or forgotten, may well be. We will all have heard of adults saying they did not get diagnosed until much later in life and talking of the impact it has had on them. A study by KPMG finds that by the age of 37, each illiterate person has cost the taxpayer an additional £45,000 to £55,000 if you add in the extra costs relating to education, unemployment support and, very often, a tangle with the criminal justice system. We do not just have a duty to help those with dyslexia, but we also have a duty to wider society.Now, let’s be clear: having dyslexia is not a bad thing. Many people with dyslexia are incredibly successful and are fantastic role models who show these youngsters what they can do. Entrepreneurs such as Sir Richard Branson and Sir Alan Sugar, giants of the entertainment industry Steven Spielberg and Anthony Hopkins, sports stars, including Scott Quinell and—probably shouldn’t mention him, really, but—the former England manager Sam Allardyce, and historical figures such as Leonardo da Vinci and Galileo: all dyslexics.It’s all about getting the right help and support and ensuring that coping strategies are in place. If they’re not in place, then life becomes incredibly difficult for people with dyslexia. So, I’d just like you to hear what Hannah has to say—and these are her words:‘Dyslexia is a brain disorder that effects the way the brain understands words.’Hannah, by the way, is 15.‘Research shows that 3 genes are responsible for the disorder and because of this, it means that it is hereditary. A person can have dyslexia even if they are very smart and well- educated despite the stereotype that they are stupid and that they are just bad at spellings so they must be bad at English but instead it is more of a memory problem.‘Reading comprehension can be difficult, they have difficulty articulating ideas and points, words can move around on a page or in the head, Slow writing, can affect every-day things like paying for food and talking to friends and can be a genuinely life effecting disorder.‘Dyslexia differs from person to person, for example one person can have a mild case when another can have a severe case of dyslexia. People with severe dyslexia are even sensitive to loud noises, may have problems speaking, are unable to concentrate, also 60% of people diagnosed are also diagnosed with ADHD. All of the points I have just said relate to me. I was diagnosed by school in year 8 when I really should have been diagnosed earlier, in primary school. If I was, maybe I wouldn’t be having as much trouble as I am having now in school now. My mum wanted me to be tested when I was younger but my teacher kept on saying “no” because “I was too cleaver to be dyslexic”. The reason she wanted me tested was because my dad had it and like I said, it is hereditary.‘The effects later on in life and especially in GCSE can be damaging, not just because of the stress but because most of the questions are word based. Even maths can be hard for dyslexics especially numeracy. All of his can lead’—I’m reading it how Hannah wrote this:‘All of his can lead to a lot of dyslexic students not getting the results they want, which can lead people to not getting into sixth form and then maybe even university. Teachers say that our GCSE’s are so important, well if they are so important, let us get the recognition and help we need. Students who know the risks get really stressed about not getting their work to a good enough standard. It can cause them great anxiety and may even lead them to depression.‘Do you know that in exams students get marked down for poor spelling, even if you are dyslexic and this isn’t fair at all? Albert Einstein once said “Everybody is a genius, but once you judge a fish by the way it can climb a tree it will live is entire life thinking that it is stupid.” There are no schools in Wales that specialise in dyslexia. My school only has a small department for dyslexia that only helps us until year 9. After that we are left to our own devices and expected to work and learn the same as everyone else. For some people it really does help but for other people it just isn’t enough and we need to seek help in our free time. The fact that some teachers aren’t even aware that certain pupils have dyslexia doesn’t help either. 74% of teachers didn’t feel happy with their training to provide them with the skill to teach dyslexic children. 2 thirds of parents felt that dyslexia is not recognised across he schooling system. But you don’t need to be a parent to know that.‘Wales isn’t falling behind though. From what I have found, not having enough support in schools with dyslexia is a worldwide problem, but to help Wales I sent a letter to the Minister of Education’—not the current one, I would add.[Continues.]—‘and the response was that they couldn’t do anything about it and it was out of their control (it was up to local Authorities). I think that there should be so much more help for those who suffer. Pupils should be allowed to stay in the dyslexia lessons right the way up into year 11 if they wish to do so.’Now, you can’t help but be moved by this letter, and it shouldn’t take a child, albeit a bright child, to give us sensible guidance as to the way forward. The second, much shorter contribution is from an adult who wrote to me at the end of last week when he saw that I’d tabled this debate. He said:‘I always believe that dyslexia is something that anyone can overcome with support and methods. In my experience the hardest aspect of having dyslexia was firstly the recognition by the teachers. My first school would not accept that I had it, they just thought I was a slow learner. It was only down to my parents who persisted and ultimately ending in me moving schools and a private psychological assessment. The second aspect is the stigma associated with people with dyslexia. I think this could be because of the wide range of cases on a spectrum; some being worse than others—some life changing, and people just don’t understand that.’Both of these communications, Minister, raise some very pertinent points. It is inexcusable in this day and age that only by having pushy parents things get done. There is no way, as Hannah pointed out, that over two thirds of parents should be feeling that dyslexia was not recognised across the system.Teachers also feel let down by the training they receive to deal with dyslexic pupils. If you think that every class will have at least two or three pupils with dyslexia, it becomes even more imperative that teachers know the best ways to address those problems. Seventy-four per cent of teachers surveyed recently said they did not feel that their training provided them with the skills they needed to identify and teach children with dyslexia. So, is it any wonder that, when the professionals feel so untrained, so many pupils slip through the net undiagnosed?Screening for dyslexia must be done consistently and in a fair manner. At the moment it still appears that local education authorities have differing threshold scores, which can lead to pupils who achieve the same scores, but in neighbouring counties, following completely different pathways for support. The January 2016 school census highlights some stark differences between authorities. For example, Pembrokeshire has 460 pupils under school action plans compared to only 45 in Neath Port Talbot; Caerphilly has 296 pupils under school action plus, compared to only 35 in Flintshire; Cardiff has 65 pupils with statements assessing them as having severe dyslexia, whereas 10 councils have between zero and five individuals with a statement of dyslexia. Given the foregoing, it does appear that there is a huge amount of subjectivity at play in assessing the needs of a dyslexic and I am concerned that there are such huge discrepancies amongst these figures. It seems to me that each LEA and, perhaps, cluster of schools has a slightly different method of assessment and classification. If those pupils are identified as dyslexic but are failing to get the correct level of support, then, Minister, the Government must look at doing something more to address this issue.The then Minister for education said back in November 2014,‘We need to adopt approaches for dyslexia and specific learning difficulties that build on our current education policies, so that we have a consistent and robust approach across Wales’.Minister, I wonder if you could tell me how this is progressing following the publication of the specific learning difficulties framework, which was published in July 2015.Through my research and during my time as shadow education spokesman for the Welsh Conservatives, I have encountered some additional thinking that I would like to bring to the Minister’s attention. One such piece of work has been undertaken by Simon Leyshon of the highly regarded Moon Hall College for dyslexics in Reigate, Surrey. He posits that the current public examination system makes it very difficult for dyslexics who are not mildly dyslexic to succeed in an exam system that is geared towards memory-based tests. To tackle this issue, three key educational interventions need to take place, alongside individual learning plans: the mindset of the dyslexic child has to be changed to a positive learning one—‘can do’ rather than ‘can’t’; a clear focus on English and maths within the child’s daily learning; and the development of an active curriculum, which would be a structured educational day with a focus on coaching and independent learning, broken up into variable blocks of time, with refocusing sessions and opportunities to explore studies of interest for the learner.A toolbox of English and maths is critical to the overall confidence and development of the dyslexic learner. And this chimes with much that I’ve heard from parents and carers. The frustrations of an exam system that insists on children sitting early exams—you could do something about this, Minister—when dyslexics need every possible minute to be prepared. The extra time never given during the yearly national reading and numeracy tests and mock exams, which promotes, then, a sense of failure and adds to the stress already faced by child and parent. I wonder if you would look at how an active curriculum might be interfaced with the Successful Futures developments in Welsh education. I was encouraged to see the additional learning needs transformation programme statement last week. I do hope that it will live up to its promise of putting learners, parents and carers at the heart of the process. The announcement of the ALN innovation fund is exciting and I would like to know, Minister, how this might be used, in part, to support dyslexic children.People can live very successful and full lives with dyslexia, but they require support. We shouldn’t be seeing different rates of diagnosis across Wales and we should not have professionals saying they do not feel adequately trained to deal with the problem. Dyslexics have a unique way of seeing things. It is life through a different lens and it can often be challenging, but we must ensure that dyslexia is a difference and not a disability. Looking through a different lens is unique and can be incredibly rewarding. Thank you.

Andrew RT Davies AC: I would like to congratulate Angela for bringing the debate, as someone who has dyslexia. I do find it interesting, sometimes, when you’re looking at certain pages, or certain things that you’re trying to compute, and then, obviously, express yourself. But maybe some people have cards dished out differently, and obviously my dyslexia was made up by my dashing good looks when they were giving out the cards at the start of life. [Laughter.]I think the substance of Angela’s speech really encapsulates that there does need to be more done. Time and time again, we do come here and say, ‘More needs to be done on problem A, problem B and problem C’, but when you look at the numbers that Angela has identified here—something between 300,000 and 500,000 people, right the way through their lives, have issues with dyslexia on a different and sliding scale—and the help that can be put in place, at the start of the education system, can be put there if the will is there at a local authority level, and, indeed, by direction of Government. I would implore the Government to take a grip of this situation, because, as Angela evidenced in her contribution, there are wide disparities across Wales, and those disparities can only be there because, in certain postcode areas, i.e. local authority areas, that help has been withheld for financial reasons. That isn’t good enough in the second decade of the twenty-first century.In my closing comments I would like to put on record my appreciation and a tribute to the coach who took me in hand, a Mr Wilson, who sadly has long departed this world, and gave me confidence and the ability to actually overcome the issues that I had with dyslexia. Today, for want of a better reason, I stand here and debate and discuss. Some people might moan and begrudge that, but I do do that. [Interruption.] It could have been so different. I do also pay tribute to the poor French master and the Latin teacher who tried to teach me Latin and French. Trying to teach a dyslexic Latin and French is not the solution to the problem of dyslexia, I can assure you. But, please, Minister, be positive in your engagement in this debate today. There are solutions there. The solutions just need to be brought forward.

Joyce Watson AC: I call on the Minister for Lifelong Learning and Welsh Language to reply to the debate. Alun Davies.

Alun Davies AC: Thank you very much, acting Presiding Officer. I’m sure we’re all grateful to everybody who’s brought Andrew to the Chamber, in all sorts of different ways. I think the first thing I’d like to say is that I certainly recognise the picture that’s been painted for us this afternoon. It isn’t my purpose in replying to this debate to try to either ignore the reality or paint a different picture. Any case that includes Leonardo da Vinci and Sam Allardyce needs to be responded to with a level of seriousness.I think what struck me in the speech, the excellent speech, made by the Member for Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire, was the sentence that you have a duty to wider society. I think that’s absolutely key. The issues of consistency that you made through your remarks are issues that I recognise and issues that I believe we need to address and that I hope we will address.Can I say this in responding to what’s been said? A country that fails some of the most vulnerable students is a country that fails. It is not my wish, and it is certainly not my intention, to allow any child to fall through the net that you’ve described, or to put families and parents through the situation of having to fight and to campaign for every element of support that their child needs and deserves and should have available as a right. Let me say this: over the coming months I hope that we will have a debate over the additional learning needs Bill. I’m glad the Member referred to the transformation programme, one on which a statement was made over the last few days.But let me say this: I would invite the Member to play a full part and to engage with us in that debate and discussion. I know the work that she did in the last Assembly on this matter was respected across the whole of this Chamber, and I certainly pay attention to and note the case that she made in the last Assembly. I know Angela too well—I know that she won’t let go of that in this Assembly. I would invite you to participate in the debate and the discussion that we will have.

Angela Burns AC: Would you take an intervention? I’d be absolutely delighted to do that. In fact, Minister, I know my office are trying to get hold of you today because I’ve just finished a complete analysis on autism in terms of the most common problems that children with autistic spectrum disorder face, because I was trying to lobby you. I would like to take this opportunity publicly to say, if you could just phone up and give me a time and date, because we’d like to petition you with that, and with the dyslexia, to make a difference to, and to enrich, the additional learning needs Bill, which we are all looking forward to seeing on the statute book here.

Alun Davies AC: It looks like I’m going to regret my generosity. [Laughter.] I certainly will make sure that we do contact each other, and we arrange those conversations. In many ways, although we sit on different sides of the Chamber, I know that the ambition is shared, and I don’t think that these matters are party political issues. I don’t simply think they’re a matter for Government and opposition either. I think they’re a matter for us getting it right for some of the most vulnerable students in the country, and we have an absolute responsibility and duty to do that. I hope that this Government will help discharged that duty.But I also recognise that in any democracy a Government cannot discharge that duty in isolation, and that the parliamentary process of scrutiny of debate, of discussion, is absolutely essential to the creation of good legislation, and to create a legislative framework in which professionals are able to exercise their judgments and able to deliver the sort of excellence in support that we all want to see. So, the Government certainly accepts its responsibilities, but we recognise the role that is played by everybody who sits in this Chamber.And I hope, over the coming months, as we have this debate, that we’ll be able to have that sort of very rich debate about how we can best achieve the sort of statutory framework and transformational programme that will deliver for people across the whole of the country. And let me say this: the Government will approach that debate with a generosity and with an expectation that we will reach out across the isles, as the Americans would say, in order to actively seek support across the Chamber for that, and will accept where it believes we might have got things wrong. So, certainly, it is not my wish to pursue legislation using the weight of numbers; it is a process of legislation that will engage in a wide-scale debate here in the Chamber, in our committees, and in the country, in order to get things right, and I think that’s more important, at the end of the day, and I certainly look forward to the conversations that we will have on that.Can I say this? The issues that you raised over consistency are ones that trouble me greatly. There’s a lack of consistency in diagnosis—we’re talking about dyslexia this afternoon, but you could easily raise that to a number of different matters and conditions, and your intervention on autism is an example of that, and I would be surprised if diagnosis wasn’t a part of the conclusions that you’ve reached. So, let us look at how we can ensure consistency—consistency in the ability to gain a fair diagnosis, consistency, then, in the plans that are put together for each individual person, student, pupil, however you wish to describe the individual, and then consistency in delivery as well. Because one of the things that I’ve learnt in the years that I’ve been a Member here is that, whilst we as politicians believe that all the problems of the world might be solved by a vote in this place or by the creation of a new or different legislative framework, what I think we’re all acutely aware of is that it is the delivery of services that really matters, and that means we rely on an excellent, well-motivated workforce that has the legislative tools available to them and structures that enable them to do their jobs, but also has both the resources and the support in order to provide that for pupils or students. And, certainly, it’s a commitment of this Government to do that. Let me say this: there are protocols in place about discussing timetables, and I hope Members will forgive me if I’m not too specific this afternoon. But we will introduce the ALN Bill before Christmas, with the consent of the Presiding Officer, and we will then seek to have an active and proactive debate across the country. We will publish the statutory guidance as soon as possible after Christmas—I would anticipate in early February—to enable a conversation and an examination of our proposals that relies not simply on the primary legislation but also on the statutory guidance that will deliver that primary legislation. And I think it’s only right and fair that people who have an interest in this field are able to look at the whole range of legislative tools that we’re seeking to put in place that will enable us to have that much richer debate that I spoke about earlier.So, we will do that. We will actively seek to have conversations with different groups of people, with practitioners and with those with an interest in the field, as well as Members here. We will seek to have that debate, which will be about listening—about listening to what people are telling us, listening to the experiences that you’ve described this afternoon and which others have described at other times, and then responding, because listening is important, but also hearing what is being said is important. And, when I talk about the process of debate and discussion, I hope that, as a Government, we will be able, when the Assembly reaches the point at which it’s happy to take this matter forward, then we will be able to have a Bill that goes to committee that won’t become a political football but where we will, together, collectively seek to improve the legislation in such a way as delivers the sorts of outcomes that—. Yes, I will.

Angela Burns AC: Would you take another intervention? Thank you, and I’m very, very grateful for that very positive response. There is one area, though, that I think is completely within your power today to make a difference, and that’s on the subject of when a dyslexic child is told, ‘You are on such a place on the scale’ and, therefore, ‘When you go to do your GCSEs, you’re going to get 25 per cent extra time’ or ‘50 per cent extra time.’ That’s great, but the problem is that, all the way through, having been diagnosed, they’ e not allowed that time in any other statutory testing. So, children end up feeling terribly demoralised because they think they have been failures. They don’t get that extra half an hour, extra 50 per cent, for the mocks, et cetera.The other area, which perhaps your Cabinet Secretary colleague, Kirsty Williams, might take on board, is the early examination system, because, again, if you’re a dyslexic child, you need your two years to get that subject under your belt and you’re having to sit it a year early or six months earlier because the school’s decided to put everyone in for early examinations and you’re not allowed to pull out of it at present, according to schools. Those are two items where you, as a Minister, and the Cabinet Secretary can make an enormous difference to the lives of the children today.

Alun Davies AC: Your comments are on the record and I will bring them to the attention of the Cabinet Secretary and we will write to you in response to that and try to do that positively; I don’t think there’s any discussion about the veracity of the points that you’ve made.In terms of the reforms that we’re seeking to make, we want a system where needs are identified early, addressed quickly, and learners supported to reach their potential in exactly the way that has been described. We want planning to be flexible and responsive, we want skilled professionals, confident to identify the needs and able to deploy strategies to help learners overcome those barriers, and that means providing the support.One of the conversations that I’ve been having over the last few months—these conversations are naturally and inevitably dominated by a focus on legislation; that’s inevitably the case, and I have no issue with that. But what I keep trying to say to people is, ‘Yes, we’ll change the law; yes, we will create a new statutory framework; yes, we will deliver statutory guidance; yes, we will ensure that we have the support in terms of training, workforce development, workforce planning and funding to enable people to deliver this, but, do you know what? It is a wider transformational programme that will really deliver the change.’ Yes, the new law will enable that to happen, the statutory guidance will make sure that it does happen across the country in exactly the consistency that’s been described, but, at the end of the day, we rely on skilled professionals to deliver the service. And, for me, it is that delivery that really counts. That is something that is fundamental, and fundamental to our ambitions. It is a real systems change and it is sometimes a change in culture as well. I hope that we will be able to deliver that in a way that I think that Members on all sides of the Chamber will want to see.So, in conclusion, acting Presiding Officer, let me again repeat my commitment to working with Members on all sides of this Chamber not to challenge the points that have been made so well this afternoon, but to resolve those issues. I hope that we’ll be able to continue to work collaboratively to co-design and deliver reforms to ensure robust, sound and sustainable new systems. It includes working with new partners—with delivery partners—to enable a transition from the existing system to a new approach. That new approach, if it is to succeed, must be able to unlock the potential of our most vulnerable people, including those with dyslexia, but we know not limited to those with dyslexia. I want everybody in this country to reach their full potential. It is potentially a very exciting time and an exciting agenda. It is one that has significant challenges, but I hope and I know that Members across this Chamber are committed to achieving it and I hope that we can work together in order to deliver for those people. Thank you.

Joyce Watson AC: Thank you all. That ends proceedings today.

The meeting ended at 18:39.

QNR

Questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Local Government

Mohammad Asghar: Will the Minister make a statement on measures to reduce council tax arrears in Wales?

Mark Drakeford: In 2015-16, authorities collected 97.2 per cent of council tax billed—the highest level since the tax was introduced. Nevertheless, circumstances remain challenging for households and I encourage authorities to continue to deal sensitively with those experiencing hardship. The Welsh Government has commissioned research into approaches that help prevent debt escalating.

Lynne Neagle: Will the Minister make a statement on the local government settlement for Torfaen?

Mark Drakeford: I published the 2017-18 provisional settlement, including the proposed allocation for Torfaen, on 19 October. The settlement is now out for consultation, prior to making a final determination in December.

Adam Price: What consideration has the Minister given to expanding the transitional relief available to small businesses affected by the 2017 non-domestic rates revaluation?

Mark Drakeford: In the limited time available, I considered a range of options for supporting businesses affected by the revaluation.  Our fully funded, £10 million transitional relief scheme is targeted at those most affected. Unlike the scheme in England, it will not penalise ratepayers whose liability is reducing.

David Melding: Will the Minister make a statement on how the Welsh Government could work with local authorities to produce innovative solutions to the delivery of public services in Wales?

Mark Drakeford: The Welsh Government is fully aligned with the need for innovative solutions to the delivery of public services.  We work with local government in a variety of ways to that end, for examples through invest-to-save and innovate-to-save schemes and through the multi-agency effective services group, chaired by Jeff Farah, chief constable of Gwent.

Simon Thomas: What discussions has the Minister had with HMRC regarding providing tax services in Welsh?

Mark Drakeford: The provision of tax services in Wales has been a regular feature of discussions with HMRC, particularly in the context of tax devolution.

Neil McEvoy: Will the Minister make a statement on the implementation of goal 2 of the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015?

Mark Drakeford: It is the responsibility of all the public services under the Act to contribute toward all of the Goals. All of the Welsh Government’s 14 well-being objectives, published on 4 November, are designed to contribute to multiple goals, including the goal of ‘A resilient Wales’.

Questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Environment and Rural Affairs

Neil McEvoy: Will the Minister make a statement on the Welsh Government's efforts to control air pollution?

Lesley Griffiths: We control air pollution in a number of ways, including through local authority-led air quality management, industry regulation and the promotion of active travel. Addressing air pollution also requires stakeholder collaboration. We are currently undertaking a consultation on air quality and noise management seeking views on what more we can do.

Huw Irranca-Davies: Will the Minister make a statement on the outcomes for Wales of the COP22?

Lesley Griffiths: I refer you to my written statement yesterday. In summary, I raised the profile of Wales’s strategic legislation and the practical action we are taking. I am inspired by the global effort driving the transition to a low-carbon economy, and I am determined Wales will play its part.

Dai Lloyd: Will the Minister make a statement on the development of community renewable energy schemes?

Lesley Griffiths: We have invested over £0.75 million in our local energy service in the first nine months of this year. As a result of Welsh Government support, eight schemes are completed, providing benefit to the local area, and a further six are in construction.

John Griffiths: Will the Minister make a statement on the Welsh Government's strategy to facilitate access to the countryside in Wales?

Lesley Griffiths: The Welsh Government has provided significant funding to facilitate access including developing the coast path and improving the public path network. I will decide on what changes, if any, are required in this Assembly term, based on the 5,800 responses received to last term’s consultation and other evidence gathered.

David Rees: What action is the Welsh Government taking to support home owners in Wales who are facing problems as a result of energy saving schemes?

Lesley Griffiths: Where work is carried out under Welsh Government Warm Homes schemes, any problems reported by householders are referred to the scheme managers to resolve.  Where work is carried out under UK wide schemes, householders are signposted to the most appropriate service, depending on the nature of the problem.

Andrew R.T. Davies: Will the Minister make a statement on what the Welsh Government is doing to engage with farmers in South Wales Central?

Lesley Griffiths: We are committed to engaging with farmers across Wales to deliver successful and sustainable rural communities, including via our Farming Connect service. I meet farming representatives regularly and have hosted a series of events with stakeholders to discuss the implications of Brexit.